I found about 40% higher torque values work well on both Gen2 and 3. Please "note to self"- on both I had to re-torque at 200-300 miles to reseat the components. After that I never had to again.

 

Thanks ... I managed to get the races in cleanly... and tried some different starting torque values with the forks off. None of the numbers I had (either FJR manuals or Bandit/SV manuals) was close. In the end I made the adjuster nut about 1/4-turn more than a firm finger-tight. Let's see where that goes, for starters.

My Bandit 12 has tapers, always has. One thing I've found over 17 years with the bike is that they need snugging-up once-in-a-while, especially on long trips. But then again, the B12's don't have lock-nuts, just the main adjuster nut then the top clamp nut.
I've gotten so accustomed to it that I can tell when it loosens significantly, and how much to tighten. It's an easy job on the old machine; don't have to move the gas tank or even the handlebars.

I'll get the forks and wheel back on it tomorrow and take it out... I'm excited, hopeful.

 

I put Timken bearings on my FJR when I did a USD fork swap and think i torqued them to 30 ft/lbs at first, backed it off and then set it at 25 ft/lbs. They got loose within 500 miles... snugged it back to 25 ft/lbs and they've been rock solid for over 12k miles since.

Now ya got me curious.... I got an '07 Bandit.... I'll have to see what you're talking about with that.

 

RE: Bandit head brgs - They get sloppy when loose: the handling feels imprecise. I have not found that I can tell this by elevating the front wheel and pulling back and forth, (meaning, no "click" or feel)

 

Here are a few photos of the bearing swap, for those who may not have done it or seen it-

Here's the underside of the triple clamp; fortunately there wasn't much attached to it except a black plastic cover with two 6mm bolts and the brake line mounting, also held on with two 6mm's.

I managed to get the job done by just pulling the hoses and calipers to one side, using a bungee hooked onto a bench table leg. They were still in the way.. a little bit, but it was much better than dismounting everything.

I also managed to leave the handlebar/ top-clamp in place, holding it back with another bungee. I did unbolt the brake and clutch perches and move them aside separately.

Here's the stock top bearing. Why the Mfr's have gone back to balls in recent decades I cannot figure

Here's one of my favorite "home made" tools- it's a little blurry but notice the bent tip on this long driver. I popped the top and bottom races out in seconds.

Getting the lower race off was a bit of a bitch. I could see no way to get underneath it.. I tried a sharp chisel.. tried heating it... nada. Fortunately I found I had a cutting wheel in my Dremel box, and with some patience I managed to hack down through it. When I got to the point you see here, the bearing SNAPPED suddenly...perfect! Loose now! This saved me from making that scar on the clamp any deeper (it's actually quite small and unnoticeable with the seal over it. Oh well....)

Now that the old race was loose (due to the crack), I could use it as an anvil to drive the new taper down. The top (thin) part made contact just on the taper inner cone perfectly, without touching the cage. I put the taper in the oven at 250 for a short time before driving in on... I had a piece of 2' steel pipe that matched the "anvil" piece very nicely, and rapped all into place with a small sledge. The old ring pulled right off.

Here's the new taper "cup" in place. This was the hardest part of the job, mostly because I'd chosen to do it all with the fairing in place. The problem was that I couldn't get a SWING on a hammer in there, because the fairing was in the way on both sides, so there was a lot of short TAPS, and I definitely have some very sore left fingers today.

I put the ring in the freezer for a while.. not sure if that helped at all- the race was very snug going up in there. Once I got it flush with the headstock, I started using the old OEM race, which I'd ground-down the O.D. some to make sure it wouldn't interfere, then used that as an anvil. Here's where I started smashing fingers, trying (upside down) to hold the old ring up against the new cup and short-stroke striking around the dial. This took a while.. and some blue terminology... but I finally got it seated fully and evenly all around.

For torque- I experimented, feeling the assembled clamp move back and forth, after first tightening the nut down fairly hard to make sure everything was seated... then ended-up going about 1/4 turn tighter than heavy finger-tight. I'm sure I will have to make re-adjustments.

One more design choice that I cannot understand- Why did Yama-Mama choose ALUMINUM adjuster nuts on the steering stem? I don't think I've ever seen this on any other bike I've done head bearing service on... pretty fragile.
Does anyone know of a source for steel replacements?

 

Well done! And yes, getting the lower race installed with the short strokes of a hammer is a BEEE-OTCH! LOL

I ended up getting the final "seating" with the old race, a threaded rod and some nuts and plates.

 

Good its done. My only maybe helpful tip for the next guy - cutting bearing races diagonally typically makes it easier not to nick up the thing you are cutting it off of. But I tend to use a 4.5" angle grinder so you have to be pretty careful and brace your hands.

 

Air chisel, 5 seconds.... however, you should split it first to use later as a driver.

Just guessing, but those who find tapered rollers loose later maybe didn't get the bottom one seated fully... I can see a torque check after a few miles is not a bad idea......

 

Got it all done... up and on the road. General feeling: VERY GOOD.

But I still have a SLIGHT wiggle in the bars, yes, coming down through about 40mph, with the bike packed & loaded.
It's greatly reduced from before, lower intensity.. and doesn't always do it near as much.
I'm still futzing with the front settings, (as I'd changed the internal spacers a little)..
but I still wonder if that run-out in the rear rim couldn't be a factor. You could SEE the tire going back and forth, (yes, "only" about .035"), and the Wiggle seems like it could match the wheel speed. Don't know.

I re-adjusted the new taper head bearings.. and they seem just fine so far, no evidence of slop. MAYBE a tiny bit tight, just a hint of "wander" if I take my hands off the bars at highway speeds, but overall, VERY stable now.
I've never felt any wobbles on my Bandit when it's tapered head bearings were either loose or tight, so I'm kind of confused. I just don't want that wobble to get worse on my long trip... wear out a tire, or something..
Suspension settings possibly causing this? They should be pretty close right now; my sag os close (although no, I didn't measure it). Same way, I've never had a bike WIGGLE from mis-adjusted forks... but.. ok, this is a different bike, being much heavier and longer

 

We're on the same path. Just test rode mine yesterday, I got lucky and have no wobble now.

I'd have to assume if the rear rim was the issue you'd have a wiggle at all speeds, but who knows.

 

I'd have to assume if the rear rim was the issue you'd have a wiggle at all speeds, but who knows.

Hmm... tough call. Right now I'm on the Snug-side with the head bearings... I just went through the forks... I don't believe this bike has ever been crashed nor bent... I suppose it's theoretically possible the forks are tweaked, but the bike was owned my an older guy who babied it...

As I said, it's not BAD... but I can still get it to wiggle a little sometimes around the same decel speeds as when it was much worse.

 

Similar result here... I recently put the All Balls bearing set in my '11 FJR, and had a slight, unnerving float, randomly, when at speed on the highway. Last week I retorqued, and it's greatly reduced. But I don't remember to what number, so I may need to retorque a third time and see if it improves even more.

Part of my uncertainty about whether it's actually a head bearing torque issue or not, was that I committed the cardinal sin of upgrades: I made a bunch of changes at once, with no test ride in between. New tires (different brand), new head bearings, new brakes, new brake lines, handlebar risers, rebuilt/upgraded forks, blah, blah, blah. Then I rode it around town for a day before leaving on a 2,000-mile road trip. Dufus.

 

Just about all of my bikes over the past 30 years have had taper head bearings.. so I've had a lot of experience adjusting the torque, most especially on my current Bandit 1200, where I can sense the tightness or looseness pretty easily.

Overly-tight and the bike will .. wander... coming down to a stop.. hard to keep a straight line, it wants to sway back and forth.
Too loose and the bike feels sloppy at highway speeds, like your front tire has become very bald, or your swingarm bearings are shot.

 

The Wobble ... and my attempts to squash it:

1) Re-balanced the new Shinko 009 tires I'd put on. Still wobbled at 40-45mph.
2) Replaced the Shinkos with Dunlop RoadSmart III's. Still the wobble.
3) Replaced the OEM ball-thrust head bearings with All Balls tapers. Still wobbling.. but better.
4) Found one of the Sonic fork springs had pushed past its bottom seat, leaving a 6" gap. Fixed that.. still wobbling.
5) Futzed around with the suspension settings. Wobble remained.
5) Tightened the head bearings a little more. BETTER, but still a slight wobble.
6) Tightened the bearings about 1/4-turn tighter than hand-tight "snug" (using a C Spanner):

NO MORE WOBBLE

Bike now tracks very nicely at all speeds

 

So, in summary, tapered roller bearings, adjusted a little tighter than OE, solved your wobble. Sounds a lot like what some of us have been saying all along.

 

It was actually the bearings AND the rear wheel. Why have just one problem when you can have two?

One issue I'm having with the taper head bearings - they seem to keep loosening up. I took a four hour trip north to Lake George last week and by the time I arrived the bars were wiggling again. I bought the tools to remove the top nut, then got the bearings to the 'sweet spot' - no wiggle and not too much torque - all was well, but now back home I can feel it coming on, very slightly.

I;m curious about the reason for the rubber washer/spacer between the main steering nut and the locknut. I can't figure why Yamaha chose that... and if a solid flat (or even lock-washer) wouldn't keep the assembly more stable.
I'm following the book for torque numbers on everything except the main steering nut (as it's not the original design).

 

Morning Greg, could you post a picture of the tread on your front tire when you find time? A straight on shot would be great.

Thanks,
James

 

Sure. 2800 miles on these skins
Front

Rear (while I'm at it)-

 

I've had a hard time working the handling bugs out. I've re-balanced and replaced the tires... swapped the deflected rear wheel for a straight one.. changed the fork oil.. installed new taper head bearings ... had the front end suspension adjusted every way I can think..

Some of these changes brought immediate improvements. Changing to taper bearings made a big difference, (although keeping them properly adjusted has proven to be a bitch; the manual doesn't give out torque specs for any taper design). Replacing the rear rim made another big improvement.

Now, I'm down to this slight..mushiness- in a straight line - very slight, but just enough to bug the beans out of me. It FEELS like loose wheel bearings. The bike just doesn't like to track as well as I'd like, although generally it's smooth, stable and doesn't wiggle at that that 45-50 mph decel ledge, (although it sometimes feels like it "wants" to, especially over rougher tarmac)... but will again if the head bearings loosen up, like they did over a 500-mile trip to Lake George NY last week.
I can't find any sort of play at the rear wheel or swimgarm. Wheel bearings front and back are fine, as far as I can see; no signs of looseness or squeal.

I keep thinking: Am I expecting too much from this bike? Is this as good as the handling gets, and I'm just being too picky with a 650-lb Touring motorcycle?
I don't think so. I've been getting to appreciate this bike's design, and what I think the original engineers had in mind; I think the bike can deliver crisper handling than what I've got right now.

Maybe I've already fixed whatever problem it was, and now it's just the leftover tires that are worn weirdly, from the previous wiggling? Maybe the bike simply doesn't like Dunlop RoadSmart III's? Hmm

Or... is there anything structural that I'm missing? Forks or frame bent from the previous owner?
Doubt it; the bike was close to cherry when I bought it w 20K miles last year.

 

I keep thinking: Am I expecting too much from this bike? Is this as good as the handling gets, and I'm just being too picky with a 650-lb Touring motorcycle?

Honestly? Yes. I've thought this since you first started posting comparing your FJR and your Bandit. You're a sport bike purist- everything has to be juussst right.

Ride the FJR like a luxery cruiser, leave the hooliganism for other bikes. IMHO sometimes "good enough" is good enough. Or you can continue to drive yourself batty and search more. To me, there comes a point of diminishing returns, both comfort and money wise, and it's just not worth the aggravation.

 

Are those wear nubs on the front tire's edges? Even after 2800 miles?

 

Yup, they are

 

Thanks for those pix Greg. For only 2800 miles those tires do look a bit worn. Kind of look a little more worn on the sides of the tire with less wear in the center maybe. Once upon a time I put Dunlops on my R1150RT and I didn't like the handling at all. Bike would slip in curves that were not at all sharp and I could easily ride through them close to 60 mph but not with the Dunlops. So, off came those Dunlops and I'll never try them again. Now on my gen2 (2010) FJR I had a deceleration head shake like so many folks do and this was with the OEM tires which were steel belted Metzler's that I got rid of with only 3K miles. I installed a set of Michelin PR2s and head shake gone. Shake mildly returned at about 10K miles so on went new Michelin PR3s and no more shake. The OEM Metzler's had a tread pattern that had what amounted to a sign wave right in the middle of the tread and I have always blamed this tread pattern for the shake. Anyway I'll stick with Michelin. I think maybe the Dunlop tires are made with a very hard rubber compound but who knows. I always run 41 psi front and 42 psi rear and get practically no cupping and 10K to 12K miles use. I think the FJR handles pretty good for what it is but my R1100RSL handles better which doesn't surprise me I mean they aren't exactly apples to apples. Wish I could put Michelins on the BMW but can't do it because of the odd rear tire size so about all I can run are the Metzler's.

 

Interesting. Thanks, James.
TIRES..tires, tires. My head hurts.
I've had very good luck with the Dunlop Road Smart series on two bikes- my old 1998 Bandit 12 and an SV1000S. I used a couple sets of RS II's on the Bandit, (which I thought were pretty good rubbers, actually)... then maybe another two sets of the III's on the same bike and one set on the SV. I thought they were great, on those bikes.
What's going on here with the FJR, still a mystery. Ever since I had the bike there seems to be a tendency for the fronts to cup, and I've had PR4's on it... Metzler Z6's... and now RS III's.

GENERALLY the bike handles quite well; it's only on a long highway that I can feel that.. mush.. in the middle.

Speaking of a wavy bar in the middle of the front, both the III's and IV's have that. The IV's are even worse in that department.I have those on the B12 and have NOT had great luck with them, unfortunately... similar SLOP in the middle. But to be fair, I had my fork heights staggered 3mm (I "listened to a friend").. and ran the tires for 1000 miles before switching back to equivalent heights.. so I may have F'd those up also.

I LOVE the III's on my Bandit; they work fantastically on that bike.

 

Greg, you are not the only one who has had to re-torque tapered rollers, and I suspect upon installation the bearing races may not have been quite fully seated. This could happen, tapered or roller..... and we find new FJR's need the re-torque in the first few hundred miles. This will self-correct eventually when you re-torque after a few miles... As far as torque, all I read is that you use same torque as you would for the ball bearings...

The RS3's are said to be a neutral handling tire, and I'd advise running 40 psi in the front. If worn unevenly, you can rub your hand on them to see if you can feel that. I don't think the squiggly line in the tread makes much difference unless already worn unevenly.

As for your forks mismatched by 3mm...... that didn't do anything, but best keep them the same.

 

Hey Ray, look at the last pic in post #6 of this thread. I'm hoping it's just the camera angle but that race does not look fully seated to me. I hope I'm wrong. But mine was like that after an hour of laying on my back and short stroking a hammer above my head. I had to resort to a threaded rod, nuts, plates and the old race to get it seated all the way.

 

Based on those tires, it isn't getting ridden like a sport bike.

 

Whoosh - I think you were just seeing the lower bearing in an angled lighting situation... I've changed a number of head bearings in the past and this time I went to extremes to make sure it was fully and evenly seated, (banged the bejeeziz out of my fingers, I think you know). As Ray says, sure, any set of head bearings will have to settle in, but I think mine are pretty much there.

[Bentnail said] "I've thought this since you first started posting comparing your FJR and your Bandit. You're a sport bike purist- everything has to be juussst right."

Well, my philosophy with any bike I've owned, especially as I get older, is to try and bring any bike up as close to "perfection" (meaning, my personal tastes in riding), as much as possible, yes, 'without making myself nuts'. I spend a lot of time on my bikes, because I know how great it feels when I have them working crisply out on the mountain roads north of here.
Sure, I am picky with my motorcycles... but please do not confuse that with "complaining".
And of course: I have never expected this bike to be an R-1.

But it's got great potential, even for it's size & weight! The shock change made a huuuge difference, for example.
So I don't think I'm being overly "picky" with this current handling situation; I'm pretty sure this bike has better characteristics in it than the current .. it should be rock-solid in a straight line. It's great in the corners right now. My goal is just to get it close to the top of its potential.

Thank you guys for your suggestions and encouragement