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I hope they don't get it. I'd rather see them win or lose with the same displacement.

Same for 2-strokes and 4-strokes in motocross/supercross. 8)

Besides, the 749s in Supersport don't seem to benefit so much from approx 20% more displacement, do they?

There has to be a 'standard,' so build the best configuration to meet that 'standard' and win. Asking for different standards for different configurations is so, so... democrat. :p :crylarf: :ale: :twisted:



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Liquidsilver said:
I hope they don't get it. I'd rather see them win or lose with the same displacement.

Same for 2-strokes and 4-strokes in motocross/supercross. 8)

Besides, the 749s in Supersport don't seem to benefit so much from approx 20% more displacement, do they?

There has to be a 'standard,' so build the best configuration to meet that 'standard' and win. Asking for different standards for different configurations is so, so... democrat.
Absolutely. It looks like Ducati is crying poor ie we can't compete on engine output with a 1000cc V2 but we don't want to spend the money to go into commercial production of the V4. I am probably incorrect but understood the WSB comp bikes and particularly the engines are based on seriously massaged commercial production engines. The reason they can't compete on WSB engine configuration output is they've neglected commercial product development. Ducati can't spend money on high cost racing programs when they don't have the sales figures and income to finance development. If they put some real hp into their production bikes with a 1200cc V4 THEN they would get sales. If they put it into an 06 FZ1, broad usage type bike they would really kick sales goals and have a base for WSB that was right up there.

Lenz
 

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lenz said:
If they put some real hp into their production bikes with a 1200cc V4 THEN they would get sales.
HP to weight, (even with me and loaded bags) my 1000cc v-twin bagger has a significant margin on an FJR1300... which is shackled to 100 extra pounds, despite its 300 extra cubies. So, I could address that issue back at Yamaha.

Does that mean I wouldn't sit up and beg for the Testastretta motor in it? HeckNO!!

Now that V4 desmocidici from the motoGP bike... peel me up off the floor.

Long as we're dreamin,' how bout a V5 VFR1000 with bags... or an FJR1300 in the same tune as a Hyabusa1300... with bags!

:ale: maybe I'm drinking too much. 8)

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Maybe some at Ducati head office looked at the bottom line & thought if they complained enough they could have another shot at dominating WSB...you know just to strengthen the bottom line :twisted:
 

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Mike-H said:
Maybe some at Ducati head office looked at the bottom line & thought if they complained enough they could have another shot at dominating WSB...you know just to strengthen the bottom line :twisted:
Ah - do I hear the sound of some subtle piss-taking or do you really think Ducati is that dominant in WSB ?

Lenz
 

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Even if Ducati go 1200 the BHP will not increase much.
The GSXR is putting out 220bhp and the 999 almost 190bhp the extra 30bhp on track is quite a difference.
The Ducati team are having enough trouble getting the 999's power through the tyre anyway with out shredding it so extra bhp will not help.

But I think 10% capacity increase would have been fairer due to the extra torque that the Big Vee will be producing.
 

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woody said:
But I think 10% capacity increase would have been fairer due to the extra torque that the Big Vee will be producing.
If you can accept that racing development and competition is often the leading edge of general advances in production bike design what is there to be gained by running "handicap" racing. IMHO maximum 4 stroke engine displacement and minimum bike weight should be fixed for WSB for all engine configurations - then you'd see evolution to the most effective engine configuration PDQ. Marques that can't compete on an even playing field would evolve or else. It would have to be good for the development of production motorcycles. Bring on the V4 Ducati engine for production bikes !

Lenz
 

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I'll admit I know nothing about racing and engineering in comparison to all the experts who have posted so far, but I have an opinion as well on this, one of my fav topics: the incessant whinning of I-4 fans who just can't stand playing on a *truly* equalised field. Not only do they want the power advantage, they feel others shouldn't even be allowed on the field unless they play with the same toys. The "bottom line" as far as I'm concerned is this: unless we have accommodations to allow for diversity of design, we all suffer as motorcyclists. Well, let me rephrase the last part of that statement. Those of us who can think outside the I-4 "box", and truly appreciate motorcycling as a sport, rather than those who feel the I-4 is the only way to go all the time for any bike and that the Japanese are the only ones who should win because they build the best bikes, will suffer.

1L I-4s make more power than 1L v-twins due to power strokes per crank rotation. In order for v-twins to make as many power strokes, they will explode. The only way they can equal the power of an I-4, is by displacement. However, since the v-twin generally makes better torque/traction, once they are at the same power level as I-4's, their torque appears to give them the edge, as I-4's no longer enjoy the HP advantage, and their design does not lend itself as easily as a twins to torque. Why is an FJR such a pleasure and thrill to ride? It's low and mid range torque not it's HP IMO. What's that woody states? If you have to rev it don't but it? And how does the FJR make all that torque? 1300 ccs of displacement, that's how.

So what we have is a conflict of powers, ideas, approaches, *and it's all good*. Once one gains a clear advantage, does it not make sense, that WSB should look at making further accommodations to *truly* equalise the field? Of course it does. We see it all the time in racing don't we: one team becomes too dominant, the rules are changed so others can compete. We also see this principle in our daily lives as well. Ramps are built for access for wheel chairs users; woman golfers tee off many yards ahead of male golfers; weight classes in boxing, etc etc etc etc.

So really then, who needs to spend money on R&D? Ducati in order to make more power with the same displacement, or the big four, in order to make more torque from the same displacement? Kudos to Yamaha for thinking out side the box with it's M 1 growler. Now *that's* a step forward, not more buzzy 1-4's.

In closing, and as far as I'm concerned, Ducati's design has proven it's as good or better that 1L I-4s to date. They have won 1 of 2 seasons where 1L I-4's have been allowed to compete, and have set track records on the same tires against 1L I-4s. This season is too young to make any predictions as to the final outcome, but so far, they're doing okay.

I say let the rules change to spur further development for all engine and chassis designs, and we all benefit.
 

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In theory that's the right idea...but we're talking racing...where the bottom line is win on Sunday sell on Monday.....& yes lenz, I think the rules were way too biased for Duc last time....but then again maybe the WSB needed more manufactures involved at the time....who knows... :roll: that was then this is now
 

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st ryder said:
unless we have accommodations to allow for diversity of design, we all suffer as motorcyclists.
Let them design radial engines built into the wheels, for all I care... just stay to a standard, and compete on THAT basis. If the standard is CCs, then build and race the best design to meet that standard. If you peddle triples, twins or v-12s... make them compete for CCs... or find a different sport to show them off. Nostalgia is for museums, not for racing.

I think the whole argument is flawed though, as two twins beat MOST of the field of inline4s at Daytona's (ridiculous) NASCAR semi-oval, semi-road track. Pinning it for 15 seconds of a lap on a high oval should have seen the Ducatis wheezing, while guys like Pridmore, Rapp, and all the other backfielders went whistling past, but they weren't. Perhaps the Ducatis didn't have the horsepower to draft pass like the fours did... but the disparity didn't show beyond that.

st ryder said:
woman golfers tee off many yards ahead of male golfers; weight classes in boxing, etc etc etc etc.
It's funny you mention that. I know a female golfer, and she's very good at it. When she plays for score with our male friends, she hits from the same tees. She says it wouldn't be any fun to beat the guys, if she hit from the 'sissy' tees. Also. my sister-in-law can hand me, and my brothers our arses on a tennis court... should we make her play to the double lines to equalize things? Heck no... if one of us wants to beat her, we're going to need to practice more, a lot more.

Weight classes in boxing are fine with me... it's a standard, like CCs.

st ryder said:
I say let the rules change to spur further development for all engine and chassis designs, and we all benefit.
I say, make the rules - THE RULES. And if you're not winning, get your ass back to the design studio... and make this thing run better - whatever it takes. (somebody call Honda about AMA Superbike, please)

Don't you think this is WHY Ducati twins run as strongly as they do? After all they could be wheezy like Honda Superhawk twins, or worse yet... Harley Davidson twins, OY!

You're saying, LET THEM CHANGE the rules, so they don't have to CHANGE THINGS or work as hard to compete. You're asking them to appease medicrity. I disagree.

Should the standard be something other than displacement? I don't know what it could be. Theoretically, with a certain amount of displacement, you have a certain amount of air to mix fuel with to make power... I think it's a pretty scientific, physical standard.

What displacement should we use for gas turbines? I don't know. But every time I pre-flight a turbine helicopter... I get a woody looking at that 100-pound engine, smaller than my thigh, capable of producing 650 horsepower continuously for 3-hours, with no cooling system. :twisted:

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Honda's leaving the ama is based on the political struggle for power within the ama if you've been reading everything that's been printed about it.....you can't blame Honda..... or any company really for wanting to avid that type of (power) struggle
 

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OBTW - I wasn't involving myself in the Honda vs AMA thing. I have no idea what that's about. :|


My comment was simply that Honda's AMA superbike program, with Zemke and Duhammel, seems to have both wheels falling off. They can't seem to win their way out of a soapbox derby. They rule Formula Extreme, but can't make a respectible showing in superbike, what's up with that? :roll:



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My understanding of that is... it's a factory effort for formula extreme, & a factory backed effort in stupid bike (read not directly involved with R&D etc)...so there is no big buck investment from HRC..
 

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Perhaps Team Ducati relies on prayer...



Hey, two chicks with fake boobies can't be wrong, can they? Are there any motorcycles in this picture?

And, no wonder they're not winning... look at the chicken strips on Hodgeson's tire? :shock:

:crylarf:

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st ryder said:
unless we have accommodations to allow for diversity of design, we all suffer as motorcyclists
Hilarious. You're kidding, right? Again carrying the torch for quotas in racing. Don't forget to allow some new rules for a 2.5 liter turbo single! We must worship diversity! No diversity in tires any more though, eh? And what about girls, we need some girls in there. Gotta be some rules for that.

Agree with liquid, tell 'em it can't be more than 1 liter, can't have more than two wheels and they gotta sell at least 500 of 'em as street bikes. Now let's race and may the best man win.

BTW, Ducati's bottom line is doing very well in the US, their sales are way up here. It's in Europe where they are struggling a bit in the sales department. Ironic since most of WSBK happens over there. I think Ducati already made the smart move, they don't need more displacement, they got Bayliss! The guy's amazing! I think it's gonna come down to Bayliss and Barros. I would have included Haga but unless Bayliss and Barros also fall, Haga's got a tough road ahead this year.
 
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