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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I offered to help a local gent here where I didn't feel he was getting good advice.... if you can bear with me for some backstory... he purchased the bike used from dealer (currently has 56k kms or 34k miles on it). Experiencing poor idle and some noises in the clutch. Certified Yamaha Tech did some work, changed the oil (it was black when he bought it, WTF), spark plugs, did TB sync... all on the new owner's dime. He advised that he needed a new clutch basket (but he did not remove anything to inspect, WTF), did not want to do a valve check (too much work, WTF), and advised he would have to take the bike to a tuner to fix the idle (WTF). It seems this tech is lazy, just wants the easy gravy jobs, my opinion having never met the man..... no way this bike needs a clutch basket with that low a mileage.... I'm developing a bad taste for so-called award winning Yamaha techs.

I get the bike, spark plugs are new, slight misfire on one cylinder (I thought), which I determined was bad resistance on a spark plug adapter, cleaned and fixed it. Noticed new caps on the TB ports, so assumed that was done. We verified good connectins at the multi-way connectors up by the steering head, bike is actually in good shape.
Oil was relatively clean, removed clutch cover and took the clutch apart. Everything was pristine clean inside, did a clutch soak and put it back together. Very little wear on the clutch basket, looked great. I suspect due to the miss issue, at low speeds there may have been some driveline chucking, checked that, it was normal.
As we let the bike down, we see a nail in the rear tire, so repaired that with a plug. I did not test ride the bike, as we ran out of time, idle miss seemed better. Later it was reported that the miss was not cured.... also it appears to be missing on more than one cylinder intermittently, a bit worse when it is hot, consistently below 4000 rpm, hardly at all above 4000-ish.... I now advised dosing the fuel with injector cleaner for the next few tanks, hoping it would clean up the combustion chambers too in case they were carboned up...... I also advised I would do a valve check to verify no valve is too tight..

Fast forward to now a few weeks later, I have the bike back, test rode it and yep, intermittent/consistent pattern of missing on more than one cylinder. However, it does it a little bit above 4000 rpm, not nearly as much. Has full power if you go WOT, no issues with performance.

Here's what I've done......

Removed spark plugs immediately after test ride. Hard to tell as all cylinders have been firing, but hint of black around the outer rim of spark plugs 1 & 4 (we had a gent with that recently, but bike was running fine).
I removed all spark plug adapters to verify 10k ohms, cleaned them all anyway, snipped a little off each wire and reinstalled (some needed it). Reinstalled plugs in different cylinders.
Started the bike, not cured.
Checked compression, all were dead uniform and healthy. Indicates no carbon on valves, and no valve leakage.
Continued to check / test / verify individual items one step at a time....
Unplug/replug Cyllinder Identification Sensor while running (Gen 1 will run, Gen2 & 3 will not if disconnected), tested output voltage is correct.
Check MAP sensor, still clean and functioning. Swapped in a spare I had, same thing, all OK.
Cleaned and refreshed ECU connector, all looked good.
Ran bike with O2 sensor unplugged and re-plugged, made no difference (as expected, would only affect fuel mixture slightly)
Checked no trapped wires at right timing cover, all good.
Went into DiAG, cleared all the codes I just triggered...... 11, 12, 13, 14, 19, 30. Ran bike, no codes have returned.
Checked TPS readings in DiAG, Low 14, High 99. Throttle response is OK, so not suspecting TPS.

Verified CCT has a green dot... good news, but could valve timing be off? Valve check next.....
Valve cover off, dammit, valve timing is OK.... makes sense, bike develops power normally.
Did valve check, found 3 intakes slightly tight below minimum, one exhaust at min.... nothing should be the cause, verified by compression being good.
Reshimmed everything to 70% max.
Removed PAIR system plumbing.
Fire up the bike, problem still exists. TB sync tweaked to perfection.

As I write this it appears to me the next logical step is to check the coils....... if you've got any further suggestions, much appreciated. Seems to me that no choice now but to throw money at it by replacing some sensors, etc.....
Anyway, that's where I'm at the last few days.
We are in agreement, previous owner likely could not resolve this issue either and traded in the bike........
 
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There is the possibility of a faulty spark plug, even if they are new. Oh, Oh, could be a bad spark plug wire connection at the coil end. Might run the scooter in the dark to see if there is a light show going on under the hood!!

I would first check for vacuum leaks around the boots between the throttle bodies and intake. If no leaks found and the miss fixed, then I would try one of the three following experiments.

1) Ride the scooter until just before an oil change (this is not an oil thread). Check the spark plugs for color. Remove the fuel line from the fuel rail. Using diagnostic mode, pulse the injectors until the fuel rail is empty. Fill the fuel rail with injector cleaner and let set overnight. Pulse the injectors some more and repeat fill and set. Pulse the injectors then reconnect fuel line. Change the oil. Run the scooter and check if miss still exists. After some miles check spark plugs for color.

2) Check spark plugs for color. Without swapping spark plug positions, swap injectors to different positions. Have one of these kits available to do the swap. I think you turned me onto this before. At least have the o-rings, but those are pricy from Yamaha.
FUEL INJECTOR REPAIR KIT O-RINGS FILTERS YAMAHA F150 OUTBOARD FOUR STROKE 150HP | eBay
After some miles check spark plugs for color to see if the problem cylinders have moved.

3) Pick up a set of injectors from Ebay, or a complete throttle body assembly, there isn't much difference in the prices. If there is a chance that an Ivan ECU flash is being considered, pick up a set of injectors for a Gen 2 (2006 - 2012).

Otherwise, might find replacement coils and / or ignition pickups to experiment.

dan

Bet the wheels are spinning now!!
 

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2015 FJR1300A
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So. aren't 1 and 4 on the same coil? that would explain that misfire pattern, although bad coils usually cause higher rpm issues. Coils next or convert to coil on plugs. 1 and 4 plugs could be a little darker from running slightly cooler being the end cylinders. The Muzzy ZRX jet kit I installed had 1 step leaner for the 1 and 4 carbs.
 

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Versys 1000, VFR800
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ah yes, things I failed to mention.... Keeping in mind this scooter is young mileage-wise.....

Vac hoses all look to be in excellent shape and I did not find any vacuum leaks. When I induce one (MAP sensor hose or fuel regulator hose), bike dies immediately but will run again if I plug the disconnected hose. Pretty sure no vacuum leaks.

Yes 1&4 on same coil, and agree the outside two run cooler, wasn't too concerned... the insulator and tips all look the same nice tan..... I'm pulling the plastic to get to the coils, wouldn't you know 1&4 is the hardest one to get at with fairings on....

While running, I did pull the connector off each injector and noticed what you would expect to notice.... lack of fuel until you plugged it back in. All reacted the same way, no real difference. One of the next steps is to pull them and activate to evaluate what sprays out. Have repair kit with grommets and filters on hand..... I can't imagine these injectors are clogged at this point, could swap them around, etc......

I will swap in a new set of plugs fer fun........

Hang in while I check the coils. Appreciate the input and all were good suggestions.

Meanwhile, I have to fix a fork seal leak on this baby too. Doing that while bike is on the lift, when done I'll continue and be able to do test rides...
 
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Check the coils for signs of arcing?
 
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it appears to be missing on more than one cylinder intermittently, a bit worse when it is hot, consistently below 4000 rpm, hardly at all above 4000-ish
I had this same symptom a while back and it turned out to be an ignition coil. Put in a new set and it's been running great since. Just thought I'd mention that. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Update..... Ignition coil both checked...... primary resistance spec 1.53-2.07 checks 1.99 for both. Secondary resistance spec 12-18k ohms, 1&4 checks 14.75, 2&3 checks 15.03..... with bike running again, no arcing or sparking anywhere I could see in the almost dark. Not thinking I can justify new coils just yet.......
Installed brand new spark plugs, did not solve the problem.... I would need to go for a long test ride to get a better handle on burn colour.....

I think I'm going to pull the injectors and see what kind of spray I get out of them......

What about TPS..... the condition exists at low throttle openings really.... hard to tell if better at higher opening, since it still has great power up higher in rpm. I can check resistance and all that, but no guarantees that tells me much. May try adjusting a smidge. I don't have a spare one to try. It's getting to the point of having to toss money at it... won't hurt to try new TPS for U$140... over $200 Canajan if we buy here...
 

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I hope your friend tosses some money your way for your efforts. (y)
 

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There is the possibility of a faulty spark plug, even if they are new. Oh, Oh, could be a bad spark plug wire connection at the coil end. Might run the scooter in the dark to see if there is a light show going on under the hood!!

I would first check for vacuum leaks around the boots between the throttle bodies and intake. If no leaks found and the miss fixed, then I would try one of the three following experiments.

1) Ride the scooter until just before an oil change (this is not an oil thread). Check the spark plugs for color. Remove the fuel line from the fuel rail. Using diagnostic mode, pulse the injectors until the fuel rail is empty. Fill the fuel rail with injector cleaner and let set overnight. Pulse the injectors some more and repeat fill and set. Pulse the injectors then reconnect fuel line. Change the oil. Run the scooter and check if miss still exists. After some miles check spark plugs for color.

2) Check spark plugs for color. Without swapping spark plug positions, swap injectors to different positions. Have one of these kits available to do the swap. I think you turned me onto this before. At least have the o-rings, but those are pricy from Yamaha.
FUEL INJECTOR REPAIR KIT O-RINGS FILTERS YAMAHA F150 OUTBOARD FOUR STROKE 150HP | eBay
After some miles check spark plugs for color to see if the problem cylinders have moved.

3) Pick up a set of injectors from Ebay, or a complete throttle body assembly, there isn't much difference in the prices. If there is a chance that an Ivan ECU flash is being considered, pick up a set of injectors for a Gen 2 (2006 - 2012).

Otherwise, might find replacement coils and / or ignition pickups to experiment.

dan

Bet the wheels are spinning now!!
I hope your friend tosses some money your way for your efforts. (y)
Apparently I've been tossing too much lol. I remain indebted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Latest update...... some improvement!!!

I was looking through my stash, and see I have a set of 2009 throttle bodies, and the TPS switch is still on it... this came off a crashed '09 belonging to a friend, and I'm pretty sure the bike was running fine, that is, the TPS is fine. I verify Gen1 uses the same three-wire TPS.......

First off, I loosen the screws on the Gen1 and rotate it slightly (initial reading 14, so I bumped it to 18 to move it off any "worn spot"). Fired it up, and wasn't really much of an improvement, but oddly enough, seemed better at readings below 14 (have to go into DiAG each time to verify the number). Odd to me, but that definitely would be in fresh contact area.

I decided that the new spark plugs (iridiums) weren't curing anything although slightly better. Likely because they were brand new, dunno. I reinstalled the old plugs, once again in different places than the original.

Lovely little job but swapped in the '09 TPS and set it to 16. Fired up the bike, we have improvement in throttle response, somewhat less "missing" but it's still there. I took the bike for a test ride and it was better. If I held 2000 rpm, no missing, if I held 3000 rpm, missing is there but not affecting performance as much as it did in the past. Did some more experiments, and at 4000 the missing lessens. Verified at 5000 it is even more diminished, but it is there. And this simply verifies what I thought I heard on earlier test rides...... but much better now. What this bike needs now is to be driven some miles to get a better assessment of the burn on the spark plugs......

But first, I will now pull the injectors. Although they "shouldn't" be an issue with this low mileage, this bike is 19 years old and hasn't been ridden much each year. Fringe and I agree the previous owner likely went through some of the things I'm doing and couldn't solve it, so he traded it in. At this point, I keep thinking we should just get the injectors cleaned by a professional service and have a flow report. That would assure us we had good injectors.... I don't know if I'll be able to tell much by pulling them and doing a little spray test...... we shall see. FYI, Gen2 injectors have a different part number, not sure if it's wise to swap those in for an experiment, so likely won't. They've been sitting too long also.........

Meanwhile, multitasking putting things back together and getting ready for the fork rebuild.... I should mention that I can't work on this for sustained periods because I have a bum knee, going to PT three times a week...
 
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Nothing wrong with getting a pro service on the injectors, they've probably never been touched by a good masseuse.

At this point I'd say let's aim for Saturday/Sunday to start putting some miles back on it... summer is getting shorter and it's six weeks until knee surgery.

Take it easy Ray.
 

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I had a similar issue on a 2007 FZ1. It was the dreaded bad coil issue. The same coils are used on the FZ1, the FJR, several other bikes and some Yamaha watercraft. The coils are about $150 each. When you test them with a meter they may look perfect, but fail while the motor is running... or running at certain RPMs. (I can't guess why)

My remedy was easier to find because one of the downtubes was cold, so I knew which one it was. I swapped a coil out of my other FZ1 and the bike has purred like a kitten ever since. Then I purchased one new $150 coil.

Good luck!
 

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Versys 1000, VFR800
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I agree resistance measurements only tell you if there's an obvious problem with coils or sensors or TPS. Nothing tells you about breaking down or performance.... I suppose you need a scope for that...... not ruling out the coils just yet, will make sure everything else is working, then revisit some earlier things.... wish I had some spare coils to play with...... they aren't cheap, especially here where prices are already 'US list plus' and 13% tax to boot. If there was time, I'd normally get stuff from the US...... I'm betting that coil here is C$250.

I spent some time today looking for injector people, stopped in at a couple of local places, seems they're not in abundance around here.... found one a 45 minute drive from here...... we'll see.
 
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If we assume the coils are good then what else would be causing this?
I would think the pickup sensor attached to the crank? But why would that be something that would cause the intermittent misfire?

I had good luck with the injector cleaner on Amazon regarding a Beemer I was renovating. It did a fine job for <$40.

Good Luck, my money would be the coil, but I'm with you regarding spending the money on one. But you certainly are going thru the process of elimination that's for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Here's a 15 minute edumacation on Yamaha fuel injection..........

 

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It definitely sounds like an injector issue to me, esp. with the age and mileage. I've experienced slightly clogged injectors behave exactly like this, at larger throttle openings they flow fine but at lighter they don't, esp at idle. You might be able to clean them yourself with some cleaner a 9 volt battery and some jumper wires...
 

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only fuel system cleaner you pour into the tank, that has made any improvement for me is Yamaha's Ring-Free. 98% of the other stuff out there is make believe as true cleaner of injectors. When they say has detergents that's the give away it's a joke. NO SOLVENTS, need to , must dissolve crud. I also suggest removing the injectors and doing a "proper" cleaning. I had multiple issues with my low mileage '09. Symptoms similar... My 2 issues were the spark caps for 2 &3 were damaged by the dealer...studs broke, likely from checking spark plugs at 600 mile service, 2 & 3 on same coil= stall. The other issue injector #3 clogged much and #4 slightly. I cleaned all injectors doing the removal of each from the rail and forced Berrymans thru them one at a time, which is mostly acetone, aka paint thinner, while using a 9v battery to open each. Placing the hose at least 2' long on the injector and using a zip tie to hold in place. fill the hose with Berrymans, energize the injector and put a big compressor hose at other end of fuel hose. My compressor was ~100psi.
-Do not do this w/o removing injectors from the fuel rail/pipe. Later after the cleaning I used the Ring Free 2 oz. per gallon while riding, aka filled tank with 12oz bottle.
- 9v battery usage will not hurt the injector because not enough current and only opened for ~5 seconds at a time. Remove injectors energize and see spray pattern using pressure from a big compressor to force fuel or Berrymans or similar thru just to see spray pattern. Berrymans eats hoses. Find large 5/16 EFI hoses rated for E85 . Memory says you should see a "V" pattern from the 4 hole injector. FYI - seafoam is not a solvent and will not clean a clogged injector. But you can use it to test spray pattern. It also helps to have another set of hands. You can try using Gumout also had good luck with that. Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks jason for the injector cleaning solution.... the wrinkle is this bike is leaving my possession and I won't really have time to go into cleaning injectors.... for the time it would take me and all that's involved, one day they'll go to a professional service who will provide flow test results before and after cleaning on their nice machines.... and it doesn't cost that much... I'll pay $150 or so not to do it myself and not as well. We have been using injector cleaner in the fuel at double dose.

As for injector cleaners, most contain naptha which is a slow-acting solvent, sometimes they call it 'petroleum distillate'. Good for gummy deposits over time. But true injector cleaners have additional harsh solvents like benzine, zylene, etc. which are intended for hard deposits. You can look at the MSDS sheets to see what's in them and make your choice. Seafoam is naptha and isopropanol, better for being a stabilizer and dispersing water ("bad fuel"). The owner of my '06 project FJR used Ring-Free constantly..... it is oily, and had carbon build-up from riding like grandma.

When I cleaned the carbon off the pistons, I soaked them in various products including Ring-Free. Nothing worked as good as Simple Green..... but of course, you can't burn that in your fuel.

So I just got word the spare set of coils will be delivered by Team Brown late afternoon today.... forks are rebuilt and on the bike. Meanwhile, today has an afternoon of appointments, including the PT guy. I won't accomplish a lot today.
 
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