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  Topic Review (Newest First)
10-14-2019 09:40 AM
JunkJacket
Quote:
Originally Posted by N4HHE View Post
In operation oil is pushed from the outside to the inside. Wouldn't this close the pleats under pressure?

My point is that while it is fun to cut filters open to see what is inside, it is almost impossible with visible inspection to judge the filter's ability to do its job.
Well my only point was that I couldn’t see the method used in the construction of the Yamaha filter to seal off the edges of the pleats, I’m 100% sure they are sealed else it wouldn’t work. Some product comparisons I can make in a store about what “feels” or “looks” like a difference in quality and then I put one back on the shelf and bring my choice to the check out counter. Granted both products probably perform equally but the point is I can make a choice so I do just that.
10-14-2019 09:02 AM
RaYzerman To take that a little further, Steve..... for a typical 30 micron filter...
1 micrometer = 1 micron = .001 mm = .000039 in.

30 micrometers = 30 microns = .030mm = .00117 in.
Nominal clearances in the FJR engine are greater than that, i.e, a 30 micron piece of dirt will pass right through everything in the engine.


I would expect a 10 micron filter to require more pressure to obtain a certain flow rate. Using the FJR engine, per Yamaha, minimum oil pressure is 4.4 psi per 1050 rpm with the oil hot (185F), which at a highway cruise of 4000 rpm would be about 17 psi. Sounds a bit low to me, nor do we know the flow rate spec, but my point is you do not want to restrict flow too much in engine applications.


Purolator Pure One filters (20 microns) flow approx. 2 gpm less than their Classic, and I can see the reason they don't recommend them for motorcycle applications. Using 20W50 oil in my '07, I noticed (minor) engine noises at startup that went away when I used 10W40 or other than a Pure One filter.


Let bigger stuff through and increase the flow rate. The stainless steel filter guys (typically 35 microns) claim the highest flow rates and market this as the most important thing. Getting too close to nominal engine clearances for me even though no one has ever had a problem that we know of.
10-14-2019 07:35 AM
passx Just a FYI,,,, 1 micron is .000039in.. As I recall, a human hair usually runs.003-.004in. Just some useless info to think about. When we were testing things in the lab the test stands that we used typically ran 10micron filters capable of withstanding up to 5000psi oil pressure but those were very high quality, costly ($45-$70) filters which by the way were made very similarly to the Mobil1 filter above.
10-14-2019 03:32 AM
N4HHE
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounce View Post
Chuck up raw stock in a lathe and turn it down?
That would be a mighty fine lathe! Could control the width of particles with depth of cut but how would one control the length of the chip? To 10's of micron accuracy?
10-13-2019 07:44 PM
bounce
Quote:
Originally Posted by N4HHE View Post
How does one create particles of known size for the filter to trap?

Chuck up raw stock in a lathe and turn it down?


10-13-2019 11:37 AM
N4HHE
Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkJacket View Post
All good questions Ferret, I can't answer them.
But I'm a "visual" kind of person and right off I noticed two things about the Yamaha oil filter that differentiate it from the Mobil-1 filter. The biggest concern I have is that the pleated cellulose element inside the Yammi filter doesn't have end caps and the diameter of anti-drain back valve doesn't reach out to cover the outer tips of the filter element pleats. I'm sure there must be something that prevents the flow of oil from getting to the "clean side" of the element by simply going around the ends but I'm not seeing anything. Perhaps the ends of the pleats are sealed but at the by-pass valve end of the pleats are open so I would imagine oil can sneak around that end. The ends of the filter element inside the Mobil-1 filter have metal end caps that may or may not restrict some of that from happening (I haven't cut open a Mobil-1 filter yet).
Maybe the filter designer knows more about what is happening than the internet? In operation oil is pushed from the outside to the inside. Wouldn't this close the pleats under pressure?

Then consider the pleats are designed to operate under compressive pressure. What happens if a "water hammer" occurs when engine quits? What happens if a shockwave occurs when there is a sudden halt of oil flow? Seems to me the open end would allow clean oil to backflow with low restriction rather than force it through the filter dislodging previously trapped crud. This is exactly the condition the "anti-drainback valve" operates.

So what if the anti-drainback flap isn't the diameter of the filter element? I think that is a good thing: all it has to do is cover the intake holes around the perimeter of the filter base. Any larger than that is waste and restricts incoming flow.

My point is that while it is fun to cut filters open to see what is inside, it is almost impossible with visible inspection to judge the filter's ability to do its job. One can admire the ingenuity of engineers. "Why use endcaps if we do not need?" Etc. But could one make everything out of stainless steel? The can, endcaps, endplate, wire mesh to contain the filter media? Would all this expense make a better filter of oil?

As I have long said about motor oil: all that matters is how it performs. "Synthetic" is not a performance specification although synthetic processes can produces a superior motor oil, just so long as the designer knows what is expected of a superior motor oil. Same applies to oil filters. Only thing that matters is test results. Tests we mere mortals can not conduct at home or on the internet.

Have thought about the difficulty in testing an oil filter. How does one create particles of known size for the filter to trap? And then how does one measure quantity of the particles after the test? My best guess is to use iron filings which could be collected using a magnet. But still no idea how to create known sizes. Or to measure the size of filings which were not trapped in filter.

Reminds me of a brilliant air filter test conducted by a group of Japanese street racers. K&N marketing would have one believe there is no better filter and no lower air restriction than with their oiled gauze product. These street racers took the airbox from a popular car and attached to a shop vac with a coffee filter inline. And a manometer to measure vacuum. The manometer gave a relative indication of filter restriction. Then they fed carefully measured quantities of copier toner to the intake. The coffee filter provided a visual indication of how much toner got past the air filter under test. No hard numbers but excellent comparison.

IIRC they found the oiled foam filter and OE paper were very close in ability to trap copier toner. The oiled gauze filters were very poor at filtering but were low restriction. But the oiled foam filter was also low in restriction.

My takeaway: foam filters are great for dirtbikes where high maintenance is acceptable. Foam filters should never go more than a year before washing and oiling. In my experience they don't go 3 years before the foam starts to come apart. On the other hand paper filters last decades without deteriorating. Excellent reliable choice. If a reduction in restriction is desired then just make the filter bigger. For example I suggest considering air filters on Porsche 928 and Ford 6.4L Powerstroke. The 928 uses a large conventional pleated air filter. The Powerstroke filter is amazing for how much filter area it gets into a small volume.
10-12-2019 09:17 AM
RaYzerman There's not much need to obsess over filters really, except to eliminate the worst. You change them often enough to be way beyond their full service life. Every bearing in your engine runs on a film of oil that fills the clearances, which are larger than the largest particles a filter passes. Most filters catch particles of 30 microns, and smaller as the filter media loads up (except the stainless ones, roughly 35 microns). Purolator Pure one at one time claimed 20 microns, but that starts to restrict flow, thus they say don't use them on your motorcycle.
The Mobil 1 filter is one of the very best, I was not aware it was made by Champion Labs, but I do know they made the once great Supertech filters you could get at Walmart... BTW, the current Supertech's are junk, new supplier.
The latest Yamaha filters I think are good, the original "blob" as I call it (up to about 2013) weren't the greatest, but they did the job.
10-12-2019 03:55 AM
JunkJacket
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Ferret View Post
For a non techie like me the dissected pics have no meaning (and there is no explanation supplied).

Does that mean one is good the other is bad? One slightly better, the other not quite as good? One your motor will live forever the other the motor will only go 200,000 miles?
All good questions Ferret, I can't answer them.
But I'm a "visual" kind of person and right off I noticed two things about the Yamaha oil filter that differentiate it from the Mobil-1 filter. The biggest concern I have is that the pleated cellulose element inside the Yammi filter doesn't have end caps and the diameter of anti-drain back valve doesn't reach out to cover the outer tips of the filter element pleats. I'm sure there must be something that prevents the flow of oil from getting to the "clean side" of the element by simply going around the ends but I'm not seeing anything. Perhaps the ends of the pleats are sealed but at the by-pass valve end of the pleats are open so I would imagine oil can sneak around that end. The ends of the filter element inside the Mobil-1 filter have metal end caps that may or may not restrict some of that from happening (I haven't cut open a Mobil-1 filter yet).


The other thing I noticed is that the "Genuine Yamaha Brand" oil filter is manufactured in Thailand and not in Canada as the name "Denso" might indicate.


I have this warmer fuzzy feeling inside that the Mobil-1 (Champion Laboratories) filter is manufactured in the U.S.A. but now I suppose somebody out there will tell me otherwise and crush my dreams like the last Pringle chip at the bottom of the can.
10-12-2019 01:18 AM
N4HHE
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Ferret View Post
For a non techie like me the dissected pics have no meaning (and there is no explanation supplied).
For a techie like me the only valuable data from the above dissection is that neither filter element is torn or collapsed. Both appear to have about the same amount of filter area.

We know nothing about how many particulates and of what size were "filtered".

Tried to understand a paper on oil filters once. What I got out of it was that filters are rated in "efficiency" because no fiber filter traps 100% of its rated particulate size on the first pass. Additionally the filter will trap a lot of particles smaller than its rated size, maybe not the first time but one one of the tens of thousands of times oil passes through the filter. The fiber filter consists of many holes of many different diameters.

The exception to this is the "reusable" stainless steel oil filter, technology borrowed from the hydraulic industry. These filters are manufactured with exact laser perforations that will pass 100% of anything under its rated particle size. To make things worse they can't reliably be cleaned without solvent and an ultrasonic cleaner.

I don't worry about oil filters.
10-11-2019 07:22 PM
passx Ferret, both are excellent choices ! Screw em on add oil, go for a ride !
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