Ethanol treatment - Page 8 - Yamaha FJR Forum : Yamaha FJR Owners Forums
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post #71 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-14-2020, 09:54 PM
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But I'm done with this ethanol discussion, we don't need any more myths about it, nor is it worth the argument to minute details, we deal with it in our own way based on our individual understanding.
Wait! I need to know which oil and tires are compatible with ethanol gasoline!
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post #72 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 09:07 AM
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The whole ethanol thing is more of a political and environmental thing, and is costing all of us (even those who don't burn fuel). Oversimplifying a lot here... it came about due to the old "oil shortage" days and wanting alternative fuel, less reliance on middle east oil. It does lower emissions for the ozone layer, but we're still pumping out carbon dioxide (global warming). fuel mileage is lower vs. pure gasoline, roughly 10% yet we have 10% ethanol. We're burning 10% more in total, does not make sense to me.
Heavy subsidies paid to enable more corn production, it costs more to grow all that corn so subsidies are needed to break even/profit. The resulting shortage of corn sweeteners means food processors have to use more expensive sweeteners, like real sugar, food prices are up. If we had the climate to grow sugar cane to produce ethanol more easily, we'd be better off... the whole scheme seems crazy to me, and now we find we don't have an oil shortage because fuel consumption is way down in general.

However, it is so ingrained now and politically it would take a miracle to get off the subsidy train that costs us all $$$. It's here to stay I'm afraid. We have occasional issues with ethanol causing us to use expensive additives at times, and for some, extra repairs.

Political rant over, carry on.
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post #73 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 09:30 AM
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And now that it's become political, perhaps it's time to just let the thread die. Once again this group can't just answer a person's question and move on. Something about beating a dead horse?
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post #74 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 03:37 PM
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And now that it's become political, perhaps it's time to just let the thread die. Once again this group can't just answer a person's question and move on. Something about beating a dead horse?
And what would be the point of answering someone's question and moving on? Where's the entertainment value in that?

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post #75 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-15-2020, 04:07 PM
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And what would be the point of answering someone's question and moving on? Where's the entertainment value in that?

Zwartie
After 3 or so pages it's just the same people arguing. Again. Strangest thing though.... again- if they would step back and take a breff they'd realize that- once again- they're all saying the same things in disagreement.
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post #76 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-16-2020, 12:52 AM
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I hate to apologize for ethanol but:

E10 does not hit MPG by 10% but for early 1980's O2-sensor engines. And some carburetors. Early 1980's had widespread complaints about 10% MPG hit in metropolitan areas where the EPA retroactively reformulated gasoline to add oxygenates. ECU reading the O2 sensor was simplistic and blindly richened the mixture, which was cleaner burning, exactly what the EPA wanted. By late 1980's early 1990's manufacturers learned they could meet the emissions tests by only sampling the O2 sensor for a reference while operating leaner. Royally P.O.'ed the EPA, as unlike the VW scandal the vehicles met the specified limits but didn't respond to reformulated fuel. All EPA "research" justifying reformulated fuel stops at 1985 model year. Since then they have declared it to be "settled science".

Modern O2-sensor engines run much leaner under steady loads than the O2 sensor would command. Emissions are aways low under steady unchanging load. So low the EPA removed the highway segment from emission testing claiming it was a "free ride." No telling what Yamaha does with the FJR. Leaning the engine at steady highway loads kicked EPA MPG of V6 and V8's from 18 MPG to 30 MPG. Motorcycles are not EPA rated for MPG so perhaps Yamaha wasn't interested in the effort.

E10 has 0.5% less energy content than winter E0, and 2.25% less than summer E0. If you can measure that in your daily driver then you are a better engineer than I. Yes, I generally note a trend of poorer MPG in the winter but I can't tell when the fuel changes. One tank may be low, the next high, its always like that. Can not reach a conclusion based on one tank of fuel.

Ethanol does not "help the ozone layer". Ethanol CO2 emissions are dismissed by the EPA with an accounting trick claiming ethanol CO2 emissions are just being returned to the atmosphere after being extracted from the atmosphere in growing biomass (corn) to create ethanol. Totally ignores the emissions of diesel consumed by trucks, trains, and tractors, or the natural gas used to power the ethanol distillery. But that is how activists spin "science".

Corn is not subsidized. If so, please provide the forms to apply for the subsidy payment?

There are generic government assistance programs for farmers no matter what the crop. Government guarantees a minimum prices for certain crops, called "Price Support." Insidious because the government price was always less than the cost of production. If the price was near the cost of production then farmers would plant as much as they could for the promise of not losing much, and the chance of making a profit. Market flooded. The government price will be the going price. The program purports to aid farmers but in actuality guarantees an oversupply and low food prices.

Corn has never fallen near the government price support levels since RFS mandated ethanol in gasoline.

You have heard of "government cheese"? That is what the Federal government does with milk purchased on the price support program. Can only give away so much milk on school and assistance programs so they make cheese which can be stored. Surprisingly its pretty good cheese but to get it you have to know someone who qualifies for food assistance.

There is a regulation which effectively serves as an ethanol subsidy: RFS (so-called Renewable Fuel Standard) recent mandates minimum 1 gallon of ethanol be used as fuel for every 9 gallons of gasoline. To get E0 the distributor must blend extra ethanol somewhere else or buy RINs from someone who blended ethanol. E0 commonly costs $1.00 extra to subsidize E15 and E85 so as to sell enough to be able to sell E0. EPA tries every year to increase the mandatory "renewable" content.

Take Pennsylvania for example: Motor vehicle gasoline is taxed $0.576/gallon. Ethanol is taxed $0.384. E85 is taxed $0.413. Blends are taxed proportionally on content of gasoline and ethanol. E10 would be (0.576 * 0.90) + (0.384 * 0.10).
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post #77 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-16-2020, 02:50 AM
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Judas Priest! Can't you just STOP?!?

No sh!t man, for the love of all gods, just back away from the keyboard.
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post #78 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-16-2020, 08:26 AM
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To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to all of life's problems.

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post #79 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-16-2020, 09:48 AM
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Thanx for the great information and education. I'm always pleased to see the dispelling of OWTs with facts.

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post #80 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-16-2020, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by N4HHE View Post
I hate to apologize for ethanol but:

E10 does not hit MPG by 10% but for early 1980's O2-sensor engines. And some carburetors. Early 1980's had widespread complaints about 10% MPG hit in metropolitan areas where the EPA retroactively reformulated gasoline to add oxygenates. ECU reading the O2 sensor was simplistic and blindly richened the mixture, which was cleaner burning, exactly what the EPA wanted. By late 1980's early 1990's manufacturers learned they could meet the emissions tests by only sampling the O2 sensor for a reference while operating leaner. Royally P.O.'ed the EPA, as unlike the VW scandal the vehicles met the specified limits but didn't respond to reformulated fuel. All EPA "research" justifying reformulated fuel stops at 1985 model year. Since then they have declared it to be "settled science".

Modern O2-sensor engines run much leaner under steady loads than the O2 sensor would command. Emissions are aways low under steady unchanging load. So low the EPA removed the highway segment from emission testing claiming it was a "free ride." No telling what Yamaha does with the FJR. Leaning the engine at steady highway loads kicked EPA MPG of V6 and V8's from 18 MPG to 30 MPG. Motorcycles are not EPA rated for MPG so perhaps Yamaha wasn't interested in the effort.

E10 has 0.5% less energy content than winter E0, and 2.25% less than summer E0. If you can measure that in your daily driver then you are a better engineer than I. Yes, I generally note a trend of poorer MPG in the winter but I can't tell when the fuel changes. One tank may be low, the next high, its always like that. Can not reach a conclusion based on one tank of fuel.

Ethanol does not "help the ozone layer". Ethanol CO2 emissions are dismissed by the EPA with an accounting trick claiming ethanol CO2 emissions are just being returned to the atmosphere after being extracted from the atmosphere in growing biomass (corn) to create ethanol. Totally ignores the emissions of diesel consumed by trucks, trains, and tractors, or the natural gas used to power the ethanol distillery. But that is how activists spin "science".

Corn is not subsidized. If so, please provide the forms to apply for the subsidy payment?

There are generic government assistance programs for farmers no matter what the crop. Government guarantees a minimum prices for certain crops, called "Price Support." Insidious because the government price was always less than the cost of production. If the price was near the cost of production then farmers would plant as much as they could for the promise of not losing much, and the chance of making a profit. Market flooded. The government price will be the going price. The program purports to aid farmers but in actuality guarantees an oversupply and low food prices.

Corn has never fallen near the government price support levels since RFS mandated ethanol in gasoline.

You have heard of "government cheese"? That is what the Federal government does with milk purchased on the price support program. Can only give away so much milk on school and assistance programs so they make cheese which can be stored. Surprisingly its pretty good cheese but to get it you have to know someone who qualifies for food assistance.

There is a regulation which effectively serves as an ethanol subsidy: RFS (so-called Renewable Fuel Standard) recent mandates minimum 1 gallon of ethanol be used as fuel for every 9 gallons of gasoline. To get E0 the distributor must blend extra ethanol somewhere else or buy RINs from someone who blended ethanol. E0 commonly costs $1.00 extra to subsidize E15 and E85 so as to sell enough to be able to sell E0. EPA tries every year to increase the mandatory "renewable" content.

Take Pennsylvania for example: Motor vehicle gasoline is taxed $0.576/gallon. Ethanol is taxed $0.384. E85 is taxed $0.413. Blends are taxed proportionally on content of gasoline and ethanol. E10 would be (0.576 * 0.90) + (0.384 * 0.10).
N4 great information, what is your source, and are you sure corn is not subsidized ? 😄 I read a couple of times it is 😄

Ethanol bad for ozone layer, hmmm..I once read that all the cows, sheeps and other livestock are producing more methane and other poluting gases, more then all the internal combustion vehicles in the whole world. So how do we control and regulate that? Would adding Ethanol to cows diet help? 🙂

Also some claim that there is no real benefit in electric cars to the environment, since the manufacturing of all battery components and the disposal of batteries is causing even greater pollution.
A friend had to replace his Tesla battery after only 5yrs of service.

Are you sure about that corn?

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Last edited by Damir; 07-16-2020 at 10:22 AM.
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