Ethanol treatment - Page 7 - Yamaha FJR Forum : Yamaha FJR Owners Forums
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post #61 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-12-2020, 08:03 PM
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I had not heard of putting ethanol in prior to E10..... sure you don't mean methyl hydrate as in gas line antifreeze (Heet).

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post #62 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-12-2020, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RaYzerman View Post
The industry has ways of dealing with water in fuel, this has been going on for years before E10. Tanks are dipsticked daily (or supposed to be) to check the level of water, next time you go to the gas station, somewhere you'll see the long dipsticks.
That works on pure gasoline where water can be siphoned out without harm. When E10 phase separates there is 4.5% water in solution prior to ethanol and water falling out of solution. That is 5.76 Oz of 128 Oz/gallon which already has 12.8 Oz ethanol.

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The pickup tubes in storage tanks are purposely a distance off the bottom to be above the level of phase-separated fuel and water. There are special filters that will restrict the flow when water level is too high, if you find fuel flow very slow at a pump chances are that filter is working...... on a smaller scale, those water separator filters are on your airplane or boat. There are commercial additives that claim to reverse phase separation, e.g., Cim-Tek Hydroburn (available in 55 gallon drums).
Cim-Tek doesn’t list MSDS which would list the basic chemistry of their product. There is no reason to believe it is any different from any other in providing more ethanol-like solvent to lift even more water into solution. No profit involved for them to tell you to just add E85. Phase separation of a nasty white mess of ethanol and water at the bottom occurs when there is more water than the ethanol can carry. Just add more ethanol to make the problem go away.

“But then I will exceed 10% maximum ethanol permitted by Yamaha!” So what? The other treatments are alcohol, but not ethanol, they too put you outside the permissible formulation.

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In your vehicle fuel tank, the pickup tube is right at the bottom of the tank, so you want something to either reverse the phase separation or disperse the water droplets into something finer than ethanol can do. There is no harm in "burning" the finely dispersed water in a burnable solvent.
Water is dissolved in solution, not “fine droplets.”

If burnable 10% ethanol is “the end of the world” as some would have one believe, you say 4.5% incombustible water is ok? I will not disagree that poor running for a tank may be an acceptable solution vs draining/flushing the tank. But strongly disagree with the claim pushing water through the engine is in any way desirable.

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Using 0.0175% water is roughly 2.25 oz or 4.5 tablespoons in a US gallon. If that sits at your fuel pickup, vehicle is not likely to run very well, may not even initially start. That is what most call "bad gas". Fuel treatment or replacement required.
First, you are off by 100.
0.0175% is 0.000175. Just as 4.5% is 0.045.

Second, we are talking about the ability to carry water in solution. The thing that happens when you dump a packet of Kool-Aid into a pitcher of water. Water does not pool at the bottom until the limit is exceeded. “Treatments” provide additional solvents to dissolve more water into the fuel. Ethanol plus dissolved water is what is responsible for ethanol’s bad reputation for corroding fuel systems. Ethanol can’t do it by itself.

Brake fluid is also an alcohol. Will etch fingerprints into paint and plastic with help of moisture from the air. Calipers don’t start corroding until brake fluid finds some water.

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post #63 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-12-2020, 08:58 PM
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Funny..was just thinking about the water injecto systems in the 60-70's while reading this thread....you just hook up a dispenser/injector canister to your vacuum line a voila...get 40+ mpg (or said JC Whitney)..
Water “injection” was mixed in the air not the fuel. Slowed combustion allowing higher compression ratios.

Today EGR is used for exactly same purpose. Much easier because it is already a gas, and one doesn’t have to replenish s tank.

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post #64 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-12-2020, 09:49 PM
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I had not heard of putting ethanol in prior to E10..... sure you don't mean methyl hydrate as in gas line antifreeze (Heet).
No, I'm talking about pouring a bottle or 2 of drug store ethanol in a gas tank in the winter. We did every it every winter, sometimes twice per winter.
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post #65 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-13-2020, 09:11 AM
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0.0175 was your number.... you should really do some more homework and maybe have a conversation with a couple of chemical engineers.
Water doesn't "dissolve" in many petrochemicals, even though it is called a universal solvent. Perhaps you've heard "oil and water don't mix". It's pretty weak in mother nature as a solvent, thus won't dissolve many things or be dissolved in certain things. Look up dissolution, suspension and dispersion, even miscivity. One could say water is kinda in suspension in ethanol, but really it's in dispersion. The more dispersed, the finer the water droplets are, thus won't clog a water separator filter if fine enough. When the saturation point is reached, the excess "precipitates", relatively much heavier than fuel or ethanol, it sinks to the bottom, e.g. greater than the 4.5% ethanol can handle. That is the water we're concerned about.... your 0.0175%.
But I'm done with this ethanol discussion, we don't need any more myths about it, nor is it worth the argument to minute details, we deal with it in our own way based on our individual understanding.
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post #66 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-13-2020, 01:07 PM
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All good advice ! There’s a lot of internet “expert” advice on the current gas but quite frankly most of it isn’t true, same with only running premium vs regular for more power or mileage which isn’t true unless your engine has a knock sensor to be able to optimize ignition timing to take advantage of the added octane.

The truth is that a gallon of regular has more btu’s of energy per gallon than a gallon of premium, unless your engine has the ability to tune itself to be able to use the extra octane. Premium fuel uses additives to increase the anti-knock capabilities and those additives displace volume (btu’s) in each gallon.

As far as additives go, I myself prefer adding a little Lucas fuel treatment every 3-4 thankfully even in the cars which keeps the carbs/injectors cleaner. I store over the winter with the fuel treated with Lucas, Stabil and a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil which helps de-carbon the top end.



I, too, use Stabil for storage -- and I use Lucas additive about every 3rd tankful. Mine is running like a top....
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post #67 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-13-2020, 02:10 PM
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Mine is running like a top and the only thing I put in the gas tank is gas.

bike X miles=smiles
smiles ÷ bike=miles
smiles ÷ miles=bike.
It's simple math.

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post #68 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-13-2020, 02:41 PM
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Like reading a discussion between scientists on whether global warming is real or not.

Bottom line to the OP, as I stated before, your bike was designed to run fine on E10 (but not E15).

Gosh motorcyclists like to make things complicated lol
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post #69 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-13-2020, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by the Ferret View Post
Like reading a discussion between scientists on whether global warming is real or not.

Bottom line to the OP, as I stated before, your bike was designed to run fine on E10 (but not E15).

Gosh motorcyclists like to make things complicated lol
No ****!!!!!!!!
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post #70 of 85 (permalink) Old 07-13-2020, 04:15 PM
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I, too, use Stabil for storage -- and I use Lucas additive about every 3rd tankful. Mine is running like a top....
I don't add a cleaner/conditioner that often but I get it. In the spring and once or twice per year for me when I'm going on a long-ish trip and will be burning a whole tank of fuel. I'd rather not have that stuff sitting in my fuel tank. I've got a place on an older washing machine where spilled Berryman's B12 Chemtool ate the paint away.
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