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Traction control treachery

8K views 54 replies 23 participants last post by  Haynes 
#1 ·
Hey guys. I've been on a few day trip to AR with my buddy and while going though some off-the-grid back roads my friend had to make an emergency stop. The only area he found was a dirt / rock lot next to what looked like a tiny quarry. 5 min later it was time to get back on the road and for that I had to ride up the incline on a fairly loose surface. I got on a throttle which did spin the rear wheel a bit and I already started to turn left onto the road with front wheel already on the pavement. At that very moment the darn traction control decided that it doesn't like the wheel spin and cut the power, which almost immediately stalled the engine and with the bars already turned a bit to the left the bike ended up on its right side. Thanks to the canyon cages there was no damage. I learned a valuable lesson to turn off TCS in a situation like that. Just wanted to share my experience, might be helpful for someone.
 
#5 ·
As an adventure bike rider, Super Tenere, I know this. If I, for instance, try to climb a steep gravel track with the TCS on, the bike will start bucking and hopping, like a horse, as the TCS switches in and out. I have to switch the TCS off for these situations, and allow the back wheel to spin.
 
#7 ·
In addition to my FJR I also have a Super Tenere. I always turn the TC off when on gravel. The ability to spin the rear wheel is absolutely necessary on gravel.

The situation described by Carlson is not one where I would have thought to turn off the TC. Good information and something to be aware of.

I agree with RaYzerman: TC is annoying. In my opinion it is also largely unecessary.

Haynes
 
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#6 ·
TC can be annoying, how did we ever do without it on the older FJR's, lol.
Wheel turned and power cut... you'll be lucky if you don't go down.
But you had no idea, glad it wasn't too awful.
 
#8 ·
My Kwaki sport tourer has TC and I can't figure it out. I've played on gravel a little and it seems like it can't decide whether to let the wheel spin or not. And once I was going uphill on wet pavement and I thought, 'let's try it,' I hit the gas and the rear wheel spun up and headed to a different state before I dabbed to save it. (??)

So far I find it only good for killing the fun of a spontaneous wheelie, because you have to stop and turn it off before you plan to do one. Whoopee, never mind.

I believe the ABS is pretty solid though... I haven't found it to be sketchy.
 
#9 ·
Activated my ABS for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I was hooning down a very goaty road. Came up over a short, steep rise and the downhill side made a quick right. Jammed on the brakes and because of the poor road condition, the front wheel must have skipped around and I felt the ABS kick in.
 
#13 ·
I thoroughly disagree!

Keeping the wheels from locking up to maintain control is exactly what ABS is supposed to do. I know my ABS has saved my butt by doing what it does very well. When I came around a curve and there was a black bear drinking water from the creek next to the road and I did an emergency stop from about 40 mph I have no doubt the ABS kept the bike upright.

But, for the sake of discussion, just how does someone "turn off ... ABS"?
 
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#11 ·
Just an FYI, ABS & TC are one and the same it’s just a software deal, all done with the same parts/piece’s. A great lifesaver as well as a major PITA ! The software just can’t interpret conditions well enough for every condition.
 
#15 ·
Imagine driving along in your car and you
approach a stop sign. You begin braking
but the car doesn't slow down. You're
braking as hard as you can but you
blow through the intersection.
That's what braking on gravel with ABS
on a motorcycle is like.
In most cases, a vehicle will stop much faster on a slippery/loose surface with ABS than without. A locked up wheel does next to nothing to help stop you. Feathering the brake is a lost art now days.
 
#16 ·
On the street that’s true.
On dirt / gravel with an ABS equipped
motorcycle, not so much.
Imagine riding trails and encountering
a steep downhill section and no matter
how hard you braked you did NOT slow
down until you plowed into your buddy
ahead of you.
 
#18 ·
Not sure I should jump in on the ABS discussion. Can we talk about tires or oil instead?

Oh well . . . I'm a sucker for abuse.

Generally speaking, ABS increases stopping distances on all surfaces.

The value of ABS is different for different vehicles, specifically 2 wheels versus 4 or more wheels. For cars, and given the driving abilities of most people, ABS is invaluable.

For cars: A locked wheel will stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. But a locked wheel (front) cannot steer the vehicle. ABS prevents the wheels from locking and therefore preserves steering. This, in my opinion, is the biggest advantage that ABS brings to the table. ABS is also valuable when a vehicle is simultaneously braking on two unequal surfaces, like when the left tires are on asphalt and the right tires are on the gravel shoulder, or when transitioning over two different surfaces, say for example asphalt to gravel to asphalt. Think gravel patch across the travelled portion of the road due to road repairs.

For motorcycles: A locked wheel will stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. Having said that, in my opinion the last thing you should ever do on a motorcycle on asphalt, wet or dry, is lock a wheel (either or both) unless you are extremely skilled (and or lucky). When off-road or on gravel the ability to lock the rear wheel is pretty much necessary if you're on a steep decline, and it can be really helpful (and fun) when cornering aggressively.

On a street oriented motorcycle ABS is invaluable. On an ADV, Dual Sport, or off-road motorcycle ABS, especially on the rear wheel, should be switchable.

Fire away. I have thick skin.

Haynes
 
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#19 ·
"For motorcycles: A locked wheel will stop the vehicle in a shorter distance."


In general, I think that is untrue. As soon as you lock your wheel(s), you are sliding, and therefore taking longer to stop. Admittedly, the "rules" are a little different for things like gravel.
 
#24 ·
"For motorcycles: A locked wheel will stop the vehicle in a shorter distance."

In general, I think that is untrue. As soon as you lock your wheel(s), you are sliding, and therefore taking longer to stop. Admittedly, the "rules" are a little different for things like gravel.
I don't want to start an argument with you however I must disagree. A rotating tire, like a tire that is being slowed with activated ABS, will have a lower coefficient of friction with a surface as that same tire would have if it were not rotating, or in other words locked. Think about this: Would you rather push your non-running motorcycle out of your garage with the transmission in neutral or with it in gear and the clutch engaged, therefore locking the rear wheel?

Many years ago I was involved in some empirical testing of stopping distances with ABS and non-ABS equipped motorcycles that were being ridden by an expert rider (not me). On dry pavement this rider could threshold brake a non-ABS motorcycle to a stop in less distance than an ABS equipped motorcycle, and in significantly less distance if he locked up both wheels. While the two wheel lockup was truly impressive this was only performed at speeds no greater than about 50 km/h.

ABS allows riders who are not experts (most of us) to safely brake at near threshold limits without experiencing a braking induced disaster. In my opinion it should be mandatory on all motorcycles however those motorcycles that are commonly associated with being ridden on gravel roads or fully off-road should have the ability to have their ABS switched off for the reasons I have stated above. The only motorcycles that I am aware of that provide this ability are BMWs, though doubtless there are others. The 2013 Super Tenere is not one of them. Apparently there is a trick that one can perform to temporarily disable the ABS on the Super Tenere however I tried it once and it didn't work, plus I didn't like the error codes I got.

If your motorcycle has ABS brakes and you're sure the ABS is working I would encourage you to test it just to see what it feels like when the ABS engages and how the motorcycle behaves. Try it on a gravel road if you like as it'll be easier to activate the ABS at lower speeds than if you try it on asphalt. I have done full ABS applications of both brakes at speeds up to 100 km/h on dry pavement and it is truly impressive to be able to step on the rear brake pedal as hard as you can and to mash the front brake lever to the bar, and not crash. At first it was hard to get my head to allow me to do this and I had to gradually work up to 100 km/h from significantly lower speeds but the training exercise was well worth it.

Haynes
 
#20 ·
Am I the only one who likes the traction control? I think it might have saved me a low side a couple times with loose sand/asphalt while making a turn in a paved intersection. Quickly throttled back enough to stop the wheel spin and tail slide but still had power to manage the turn.
 
#23 ·
It's good to think about what TCS does, it doesn't work as well on a two-wheeler as it does on 4 wheelers. I'd be happy without it, I don't really ride such that I need it and I don't think I'd like that it cuts power so much... a milder level would be better, especially where the OP had his situation. As Intuit says, cut the throttle and the whole suspension loading changes abruptly, slight turn of the front wheel and you're going down.... similar to hitting the front brake while slightly turned in a slow speed manoever... you're going down.
So, the way I ride, I don't spin the rear wheel when taking off, also try to not accelerate in curves if there's debris/water on the road. We never had it until Gen3, whatever did we do before that, lol. Another gadget added to solve a problem we didn't really have?

When I think of adventure or dirt riding, those experienced with that adapted very well to not having it, controlled wheel spins in dirt/mud, etc. In sand, you'd want more throttle in many situations, TCS wouldn't help there. It would be nicer to have a TCS switch at your fingertips, not having to reach up to the dash like on the FJR and turn it off.
 
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#25 · (Edited)
I won’t have a modern bike without abs. It simply allows for faster stops than would otherwise be possible in a variety of situations. I have plenty of experience with emergency braking, both with motorcycles and four wheeled vehicles. From an operator perspective and from a law enforcement driving instructor perspective. We put drivers through drills where they experience what vehicles limitations are without, and with, abs functionality. No substitute for abs.

It’s kind of like the reenactment scene in Sully. If you knew what was going to happen and what you’d have to do and whether it would work, all ahead of time, that’s not the situation that we have abs for. It’s not a system that exists to compensate for folks who suck. It’s a system that exists to help in situations where there’s simply no time, distance, or traction to spare.

Not only does it allow for shorter stopping distances, it allows for (with cars, and to a lesser extent, with motorcycles), the ability to actually steer the vehicle under emergency braking. A valuable and effective tool, unlike so many of the supposedly indispensable technological “advances” we have to pay for in new vehicles these days. TCS can be helpful, but it’s not on the same level as abs
 
#26 ·
I won't have a modern bike without abs
^ this, +1.

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I think this thread is becoming argumentative, as many threads here on this forum do. I urge all the combatants to step away from the computer and take a deep breff. Obviously the topic of ABS evokes strong feelings. Also as obvious is that no one is going to convince anyone of anything. Leave the physics to physicists. Let's face it- as soon as someone says, "I don't want to start an argument with you[,] however......" that's exactly what's already happening.

Please folks, dial it in. Let it go. Move on.
 
#33 ·
I like toilets. They're a primary means for disposal of hazardous bio-matter. Anyone who says otherwise, is very smelly turd.


Yeah that's just the nature of indirect communication. People say things about, or to others, they ordinarily wouldn't. I always refer to it as "internet bravery". :) Our current 'n chief spent his previous campaign calling his predecessor everything but a Saint, but once in the oval office sitting face-to-face, had nothing but kind words to say; directly contradicting many prior statements... couldn't even recognize the dude I was like, "who abducted'em and put this imposter in his place" LoL. (of course went back to prior rhetoric the minute he left) But, that's just standard behavior for many folk. Just call it out *when* you see it. :)
 
#35 ·
Traction control and ABS got stirred together like mashed potatoes and gravy in this thread.

I believe in the ABS. TC I can live without.

In another thread I linked to a Dept of Transo study that showed in the vast majority of situations and surfaces ABS was superior with shorter stopping distance.
 
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#36 ·
I believe in the ABS. TC I can live without.
Agreed. I find the performance of ABS in the bikes I've played with to be more consistent, predictable and operational than their TC systems.

I've now ridden several bikes with TC from Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki and BMW... and they were all extremely inconsistent. I would be happy if I could turn it off and on while riding instead of at a dead stop.

In braking, I've locked a front wheel about three times on the pavement and barely saved it twice. Thankfully the third was low speed, but I had no idea the surface was sand instead of pavement. Aside from that, ABS probably won't save me in a controlled, maximum-performance braking situation... it would probably save me when something surprised me and I grabbed that panic squeeze that finds you watching your bike sliding down the pavement without you... commencing sudden and simultaneous cursing and praying, depending on conditions.
 
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#40 ·
I believe that ABS is a great feature, especially for new riders. That being said, I've had my FJR for 2ish seasons and have put about 15,000 km on it. It's the first bike I've owned with ABS (no TCS). Other than practicing emergency braking in a parking lot, I've not yet had a situation where the ABS had to engage. Way back in the early-mid 90's when ABS was starting to be more commonplace on cars I remember testing it out on a rental car in the pouring rain on an interstate off-ramp and was thoroughly impressed with how it allowed me to brake hard and still maintain my line through the ramp. I think that's one of the major advantages of ABS - it allows the driver (or rider) to maintain control and swerve (if required) while braking hard in an emergency situation.

As far as TCS goes, I've never experienced it on a bike but we have it on our car and SUV and it sure does take the fun out of winter driving. Come to think of it, so does ABS. I had to turn it off on a rental car last winter in Maine or else I would have been stuck at the bottom of a snowy and icy hill until spring. Again, I think both are great features for new drivers/riders and can help anyone should they otherwise lose control of their vehicle. I believe that on many of the adventure bikes out there today, ABS and TCS, are adjustable, which is a good thing for dirt and gravel roads - dial it in to the setting that you're comfortable with.

Zwartie
 
#41 ·
Couple of additional points I’ll add.

Years ago a friend had a new 96 Tbird and he constantly complained about the abs/traction control on it and how bad it was. He came to me wanting to plumb around the abs module. So after a very long rant about it and multiple beers I finally got to ask him what it was that he hated about it. He said he hated it because it provided no braking and the pedal would go to the floor and he had actually rear ended another car because of it. I asked him if by chance he was pumping the brake pedal,which he said he was because that’s what you do for proper braking.

I told him that you are supposed to just hold the brake against the abs, no pumping because it depletes the accumulators in the abs module causing the pedal to go to the floor. This fueled another beer induced rant about that not being the proper braking method, but once the beer was no longer involved and he tried it out he found that it worked as designed.

The bad thing is that his daughter about a year later totaled that Tbird because she was pumping the brakes trying to stop it, her dad had beat that into her head to pump the brakes but failed to tell her to just hold the brake...

Anyway the moral here is do not pump the brakes, just hold them firmly against the abs. The abs on my 14 is one of the very best I’ve ever experienced, it’s quite good.
 
#51 ·
Couple of additional points I'll add.

Years ago a friend had a new 96 Tbird and he constantly complained about the abs/traction control on it and how bad it was. He came to me wanting to plumb around the abs module. So after a very long rant about it and multiple beers I finally got to ask him what it was that he hated about it. He said he hated it because it provided no braking and the pedal would go to the floor and he had actually rear ended another car because of it. I asked him if by chance he was pumping the brake pedal,which he said he was because that's what you do for proper braking.

I told him that you are supposed to just hold the brake against the abs, no pumping because it depletes the accumulators in the abs module causing the pedal to go to the floor. This fueled another beer induced rant about that not being the proper braking method, but once the beer was no longer involved and he tried it out he found that it worked as designed.

The bad thing is that his daughter about a year later totaled that Tbird because she was pumping the brakes trying to stop it, her dad had beat that into her head to pump the brakes but failed to tell her to just hold the brake...

Anyway the moral here is do not pump the brakes, just hold them firmly against the abs. The abs on my 14 is one of the very best I've ever experienced, it's quite good.
Both ABS and TCS have a lot of room for improvement.

Re ABS, either stop the vehicle as instructed by the driver, or provide auditory/visual queues to train the driver on its use. (Big flashing "HOLD" sign and/or tone?) With a properly engineered braking system, it should be impossible for the driver to do anything that would result with the brake pedal hitting the floor.

TCS in my car at least provides a flashing visual queue on the dash. Like ABS, if you go against instinct just hold the accelerator steady, TCS will probably work okay; just let it do the work. Feather the pedal, changing the input and it will probably throw off its calculations, "confuse" the system.

Personally, started off driving without the e-nannies and up until four years ago, never owned anything with an e-nanny. Still haven't and don't want to own anything with an automatic transmission. Probably hundreds of thousands of miles of experience under all weather conditions in vehicles where I could "feel" the road. The moment I lost traction (braking, accelerating or cornering) was the moment I knew it. Never been the "mash it and hold it" type. I roll on/off the throttle, and ease on/off the brake. Open differential, there was one exception where I got a little too playful on an empty highway during a snow emergency and TCS would've prevented a 360. Nothing works on ice so there haven't been any situations where ABS would've personally benefited me. On ice, someone overshot their driveway and decided to throw it in reverse. Coming down the road behind this person, it was either put it through his back seat or put it in a ditch. I think most would choose the latter. Fortunately no damage as large plows of snow lined those ditches. Just had to call a tow truck to come pull me out.
 
#42 ·
ABS on cars and bikes has saved me. On two wheels that's important because you are more likely to stay upright... skid your wheels on a slippery surface even ever so slightly leaned and down you will go... you'd rather have all your available rubber on the road.
On the bike, my best example was riding on a street when it just started to sprinkle some rain, and coming up to a red light. Well, the accumulation of everybody's drips of coolant, oil and tire rubber at intersections, can stretch back 100 feet.. if it doesn't rain real hard to get it washed away, it's like being on banana peels. So me and my 900 lb. Goldwing approached a car, obedient driver he was, who had braked hard to stop at an orange just about to turn red light. Initially I started to slide, but the ABS kicked in and modulated away while I held the brakes on in panic.... I stopped 6" from his rear bumper. If I had slid, I was down and metal and plastic don't have a lot of stopping power. It woulda hurt to bang my body against car parts.
 
#43 ·
ABS in a rental BMW auto on the autobahn in the rain saved me once.


I have owned my FJR for 6 years now and I have never inadvertently engaged the ABS. I have, however, triggered the TC twice, once in gravel and once in the rain.
 
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