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Handlebar wobble

16K views 84 replies 23 participants last post by  passx 
#1 ·
Started after checking and tightening the steering not bearing. I wondered if I overtightened even though I followed the book's instructions. Would that induce the wobble if I overtightened? If so, how do I repair that??
 
#2 ·
If you get the stem too tight the whole front end won't be able to self correct as you balance and you'd find it difficult to track a straight line. Too loose and the front end giggles about like it's a bobble head. Which do you have?
 
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#3 ·
That's an interesting way to describe it. The bike is tracking straight and better than ever actually. Previously drifted to the right. Tracks straight now. Yet, like I said before, when I take my hands off the bars, both ends of the bar jiggles
 
#5 ·
Ptackley,

A bad front tire can cause this problem, either worn, or out of balance, or both. Check that the bare rim is spinning true, before installing the new tire. If you almost need a new front tire now anyway, replace it with a new balanced tire, and see how that goes.

The real and final cure for the problem is to replace the steering head ball bearings with tapered roller bearings. Timken bearings are the best, historically.

The problem won't get better if ignored, but it will get worse.
 
#7 ·
I'd revisit the procedure using the recommended tool and torque specs ,since the jiggle wasn't present before you did it, and see if your symptom changes.
 
#9 ·
I know you mentioned following the books instruction but it would be remiss not to ask if you had the front wheel completely off the ground when performing the procedure.
 
#12 ·
The front wheel is the exciter for the oscillation but the handlebars only wobble because the bearings allow. Try as you might at self-deception the OE ball bearings can not be adjusted into compliance once they have worn enough to wobble at 40-45 MPH. No amount of balance, miracle balance beads, new tire, tire pressure, bearing preload torque, will put an end to it. At best you can change the MPH the problem peaks but you can't move it above 100 MPH or below 5 MPH with anything but new bearings.

Just a very little wear on the ball bearings allows relatively large radial play. This is why the ball bearing can not be adjusted. But a tapered bearing is resting in a cone which requires as much axial movement as radial. The entire mass of the front end is resting on one tapered bearing holding it centered and the top one doesn't need much to hold. As a result tapered steering bearings tend to be a permanent fix. Some purists claim the lower starting friction of ball bearings result in superior handling, but realists among us realize tapered bearings always ride better than bad ball bearings. Also doesn't hurt when the All-Balls tapered bearing and seal kit is less than half the price of Yamaha's ball bearing replacements. Then again the parts cost is minor compared to 3 hours shop labor.

After replacing my worn ball bearings with tapered I was shocked and delighted at how well my FJR steered at all speeds, with and without hands on handlebars. Intellectually I knew if the bars were wobbling hands-free then they must be wobbling and shaking my hands, but it wasn't something I could feel even when looking for it. Couldn't feel until it was gone.
 
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#16 ·
A few years ago some Fireblade owners were complaining of twitchy steering but the dealers could find no problems. Honda UK told the dealers to change the head bearings for tapered type from the plain bearings for any customer who complained.

Honda's take was that the steering was normal for that type of bike and the customers expectations were unreal for a Blade. They said the tapered bearings created more drag and made the customers happy so all good.
 
#13 ·
Okay, so you folks got my attention. I just looked up the kit for my bike. Amazon shows it as kit number 22-1003 at about $28.00 Is that the correct kit?

I'm not sure whether I want to tackle the project or not. I am a good mechanic, but my theory is that if it's a project I'm likely to do only once, or only once every several years, AND it's a job that correct installation is fairly important, I would prefer to pay to have it done by folks who are good at it. My dealer has a mechanic that I'm very comfortable with.

So, two questions. 1) how hard for an above average shade tree mechanic (but NOT in Ray's league!!!)? 2) How much would be a fair price for the dealer to install them?
 
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#14 ·
I had a wobble problem a few years back while traveling from home to Yellowstone. Around Rapid City we stopped for the night and I put the bike up on the center stand. Everything was looking good. I put the bike into first gear (with side stand up) and watched the back wheel spin at idle. The tire looked out of round. Turns out the tread was starting to separate in the back tire. And that was causing my wobble.

New back tire fixed that problem. So the wobble could also be rear wheel related problems.

You can change the steering bearings yourself. Just remember tapered bearing require less torque to be properly adjusted.
 
#17 ·
Back in the good old days, steering head bearings were adjusted to create a certain amount of drag rather than using a torque spec. Obviously they will take up to 37 ft. lbs. using Yamaha's spec, albeit this is to ensure they are fully seated... what we have found is FJR's require retorque after being ridden that first few hundred miles. What I have found is the 13 ft. lbs. final torque is too light or marginal.
We had a tech day this weekend, one 2012 FJR has a wobble that was rather significant, bike has 100k miles, condition showed up after using RS3 tires. Yes the tires were properly inflated to 40-42, yes there was some uneven cupping/scalloping and center ridge of the dual compound starting to show. 96k miles by this owner, who has never touched the steering head bearings and has had no issues thus far.

We torqued the steering head bearings to 37, then to 18 ft. lbs. Test ride revealed condition was much improved, but minor feeling in the bars..... which we attribute to the tire wear. Owner will return to previous brands of tires that never had this problem.
This rider is more of a long distance rider, not a twisty rider, but the fork springs have never been upgraded either (far too weak for this rider). Damping settings were 14 clicks out (basically, non-exisistent) and preload was set to 3 bars showing. We rebuilt the forks, which also had never been done... shockingly, bushings looked nearly new, oil wasn't that bad. Not surprising with no damping, the tire wear was less than optimal so to speak. After new bushings, seals, 5W BelRay oil, damping set to 9 clicks out, preload cranked all the way in, test ride revealed "wobble" condition gone but some vibration when ACCelerating and DEcelerating.... tire wear.
I have the same RS3 tires, do not have uneven tire wear...... preload cranked all in, damping in play. Steering head bearings snugged up before 600 miles.... similar settings on my '07.... I've never felt a wobble of any kind.
I think jumping to the conclusion tapered rollers are the cure is premature. I don't disagree they are superior, they are. I think the originals are fine as long as you address all the other factors.......
 
#22 ·
Ray i totally agree with you the suspension ballance has so much to do with this. Fitting tapered bearings is a sticking plaster in some ways. Since i had my forks revalved and resprund and i fitted custom built shock the wobble i had from new has gone. It wasnt bad and only happened with hands off the bars but my 2005 bike biggest problem was the suspension, it was way undersprung for two up riding. Also jacking the back up by 10mm made a difference. With the mods i have done the bike is so different and planted, it handles more like an R1 than a soggy FJR.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Personally, I found using an air hammer with a blunt point to work extremely well for removing the old races and installing the new ones. For me it took all the pain out of doing this, but i’ll add that N4’s method above is the more “traditional” method and also works well.

I just replaced the head bearings in my 76 gl1000 using the air hammer method and I was able to remove the old race and install the new stem bearing race in a minute or so, including taking it off and reinstalling the race a couple of times to add or remove washers under the race to get the height just right. It’s an old Honda thing.

An added bonus that i’ll add is that normally you need to retorque the bearings after a bit because things move and seat in and get loose, doesn’t seem to be the case with using the air hammer. Highly recommended.
 
#23 ·
There wouldn't be a wobble if something wasn't loose to allow energy to accumulate at the resonant frequency.
 
#24 ·
Even though I really hate to agree with n4 ��, he is absolutely correct, and as bill Lumberg has said on most all of these conversations you need to start with the easy stuff first and make sure that everything else is at spec before diving into the head bearings.

You need to make sure there is no looseness or binding in the fork, take everything loose and bounce the front end a few times To let it find its free center position and then go through and torque everything to spec including the current head bearings. How badly cupped is the current front tire ? Do the easy stuff first !

I know we tend to “push” putting the tapered roller bearings in and I am a big fan as they really tighten things up giving the bike a more solid feeling but again do all the easy stuff first and if that doesn’t fix the wobble then do the tapered bearings, I consider them the last step in the wobble correction. My .02

On my 14a it was always a loose handler feeling sloppy when pushed into a corner not precise feeling at all. I was a bit disappointed with the “sport” handling of the fjr especially when compared to my antique Honda’s on bias’d ply tires (all have tapered head bearings), but after the near tank slapper was fixed with the new tapered bearings my fjr was a different bike, very solid and precise in corners now. Keep in mind that you’re going to need to check the taper bearing torque regularly for a while after installing them, taking up slack from things seating in but will get to a point needing no more retorquing.
 
#25 ·
Even though I really hate to agree with n4 ��, he is absolutely correct, and as bill Lumberg has said on most all of these conversations you need to start with the easy stuff first and make sure that everything else is at spec before diving into the head bearings.

You need to make sure there is no looseness or binding in the fork, take everything loose and bounce the front end a few times To let it find its free center position and then go through and torque everything to spec including the current head bearings. How badly cupped is the current front tire ? Do the easy stuff first !

I know we tend to "push" putting the tapered roller bearings in and I am a big fan as they really tighten things up giving the bike a more solid feeling but again do all the easy stuff first and if that doesn't fix the wobble then do the tapered bearings, I consider them the last step in the wobble correction. My .02

On my 14a it was always a loose handler feeling sloppy when pushed into a corner not precise feeling at all. I was a bit disappointed with the "sport" handling of the fjr especially when compared to my antique Honda's on bias'd ply tires (all have tapered head bearings), but after the near tank slapper was fixed with the new tapered bearings my fjr was a different bike, very solid and precise in corners now. Keep in mind that you're going to need to check the taper bearing torque regularly for a while after installing them, taking up slack from things seating in but will get to a point needing no more retorquing.
No doubt, try all the other "stuff" first. I did too and nothing was a permanent solution. Tapered bearings finally solved my wobble for good.
 
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#26 ·
There appear to be several factors involved, given the bike I just worked on... tires were scalloped/cupped and shouldn't have been to that degree at such low mileage. Tire pressures were 42 minimum for that time. Suspension damping was essentially non-existent at 14 clicks out. We already know the Gen2 fork springs are weak, and in this case inadequate for a heavier rider, who had the preload at three bars showing... bike has 100k miles, never had this issue before, just with these RS3 tires.

Currently, damping was set at 9 clicks out and preload was dialed all the way in.... and rider advised to get new springs. Situation is much improved but some residual issue remains, I think due to the uneven tire wear.


I have the same tires, albeit on a Gen3, but I know a little bit about suspension settings and ride a little more aggressively... my tires don't even look like that rider's and we have about the same mileage on them (3000).
So, I would look at a few things plus verify my steering head bearings were torqued (more than 13) before I go the tapered bearing route..... but, for a few hours labour and they are cheap, it's no biggie if you change them.
 
#27 ·
I tried “everything” for 10,000 miles after the wobble started, including torquing the preload on ball bearings to the point the motorcycle was not safe. Yet it still wobbled, only at 45 MPH rather than starting at 40 MPH. It was an education. Tracked down spec sheet of the OE bearing. Looking at contact points of balls in races one can see with very little wear radial displacement will occur with very little axial. That means one can not apply enough preload (in the axial direction) to prevent radial motion. Conversely the tapered bearing is self-centering. To move radially a big motion axially is required. Also no doubt static friction to start turning is greater for tapered. For purists the ball bearing is preferred for steering, but for realists the difference may be an improvement, and the durability seals the deal.

Have posted profile picture several times of an RS3 I removed having served its entire life under tapered bearings. Had no idea it was as wavy as it was. No idea it was wavy at all.
 
#28 ·
I picked up my '15 ES last fall with 10,000 miles on it... The front tire was a bit cupped, but I didn't think it was that bad. Riding home I took my hands off the bars for a moment when decellerating toward a stop (approx 40mph coasting down), and the bars started to shake violently. The bars never wobbled when my hands were on the grips, but as soon as I took them off they would start the "death wobble". It was bad. I first tightened the stem as per instructions, but still had the issue. I put some fresh skins on it this spring, and the issue is now gone.

One thing to note, the previous owner used dynabeads to balance the tires instead of traditional stick-on weights. The tires never felt out of balance at any speed, but I wonder if they were a contributing factor to the front end wobble I was getting.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this helped anyone, but maybe it will. Cheers!
 
#29 ·
I put some fresh skins on it this spring, and the issue is now gone.
I thought the same thing the first time a new tire helped mine but it never lasted. I suggest you periodically check by riding no-hands to see if the problem returns.
 
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#30 ·
I definitely plan to, rbentnail. I am hopeful but doubtful that the tire/dynabeads were the issue. My buddies have FJRs though, and neither of them have the death-wobble.

I will be keeping an eye on this, and will post updates as I have them.
 
#31 ·
Shemp71, your tire was not cupped, it was scalloped. Cupping occurs in one or few places in the tire and spans multiple tread blocks. Scalloping is a form of feathering both of which repeat every tread block. There is nothing you can do to prevent motorcycle tires from scalloping. The tire profile is rounded. The rolling diameter is continuously changing across the tread but the road always passes at the same speed under the tire. Something has to scrub between the differing rolling diameters of the contact patch.

Dynabeads require a certain speed before there is enough force to move them into place. Others have suggested this is between 30-50 MPH. I understand the physics but do not believe they are a good idea. The wheel has to shake out of place to move the beads into balance. The beads don’t know the difference between a crack in the road and out of balance so they will try to balance road irregularities which can only make the road more bumpy. But maybe this isn’t noticeable?

The wobble is a case of mechanical resonance much the same as an electrical oscillator. Mass and flexibility and rigidity determines frequency. An exciter is needed to add energy, preferably one close to the resonant frequency. Rolling front tire suffices in this case. Hands on bars alter the mass and provide damping. Sometimes a new tire reduces the energy available to excite the system enough that at first glance the cause and cure seems to be found. But as long as slack remains in steering stem bearings the opportunity for oscillation remains.

There is a lot of B.S. on the internet but there is some wisdom to be found. Your wobble and scalping will return before your new tire reaches wear bars. All-Balls tapered bearing upgrade is only $30 but 3+ hours of labor to install. Will solve the problem even with the old tire. But it won’t hurt anything to wait until the wobble returns.
 
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#32 ·
Hey everybody, I'm joining the "Handlebar wobble whenever I take my hands off at 45 mph with no extra weight" club :(
What I already did with my mechanic:
- Checked tire pressure
- Checked tire surface (it's 1 year old tire with 2000 miles on it)
- Balanced the tire
- Tightened parts

Unfortunately I got no success (or vibration starts at 35 mph instead of 30 mph, not sure).

Is my next step an all-Balls tapered bearing upgrade/replacement or there are some extra steps I could try? It will be around 600$ in total and it looks like there is no guarantee that this issue could be resolved after that.
Could adjustment of spring or rebound damping force or compression damping force or any other front suspension adjustment help me?
Are there any other things I could try?

Also how critical is this issue and what could be if I'll ignore that (in theory) - I mean any health issues because it looks like all vibrations goes to your hands or anything else?
 
#33 · (Edited)
I’ve never had any wobble that wasn’t due to a tire or something being bound up after reinstalling the wheel. Never had to replace bearings. No wobble on either of my FJR’s that wasn’t easily remedied in a few minutes. I had one tire that wore funny that caused it. And a couple of times the forks were tweaked after a tire change. Loosening things, bouncing a couple of times, then retorquing solved the problem.
 
#34 ·
The frequency with which this topic comes up convinced me that this is a real problem with the FJR. Installed tapered bearings ~ 10K miles ago and the steering has been solid as a rock ever since. Your bike, your life but I can assure you a tank slapper at 40 MPH is no joke.
 
#35 ·
Look at any forum for any bike and I guarantee you you will find reports of handlebar shimmy while decelerating around 40 mph with the hands off the bars. Here's a few.... all I did was google handlebar shimmy at 40 mph (heck there are even threads in their about cars doing it..weird huh?)

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...hUKEwio95XcpfbkAhVJlKwKHWaDCaUQ4dUDCAg&uact=5

People complained about it when I worked in the industry from 1972 to 1989 and they are still complaining about it. There are you-tube videos on it. All kinds of hypothesis on why and all kinds of circumstantial evidence of cures. "I put 2 extra pounds of pressure in my front tire" " I put new tires on" I had my tires re-balanced" I put new steering head bearings in it" "I just made sure everything was in alignment and tightened things up" etc etc all ending with "and the problem went away".

https://www.google.com/search?q=mot...p_bkAhUKOq0KHbpWDlsQ_AUIFCgD&biw=1920&bih=937

btw mine does it too. Has ever since I bought it. Been doing it for 20,000 miles now. It's really not a big deal

How about try not letting go of the handlebars just so you can feel a shimmy and imagine there is something horribly wrong with your bike? Or if you insist on letting go of the bars, run it up to 60 and let go where it will be nice and smooth, just grab them before you get down to 40 lol.
 
#39 ·
btw mine does it too. Has ever since I bought it. Been doing it for 20,000 miles now. It's really not a big deal.

How about try not letting go of the handlebars just so you can feel a shimmy and imagine there is something horribly wrong with your bike? Or if you insist on letting go of the bars, run it up to 60 and let go where it will be nice and smooth, just grab them before you get down to 40 lol.
On my bike is WAS a big deal. Imagine this- tire wants to wobble but you stop the see-able motion by holding the handlebars. But the tire still wants to wobble so that motion is absorbed by the forks. Might this be a contributing factor to some peoples' prematurely worn out fork bushings? I don't know but I do know this: when my steering wobbled I had fork seal leaks. Since installing tapered roller bearings I have no wobble and no leaks regardless of what tire, how much & how weird the wear; regardless of tire pressure, regardless of road conditions, regardless of how I set the suspension, regardless of what order I tighten fasteners following a wheel removal- I have zero wobble. None, ever. It is NOT normal, it IS dangerous and IMHO it IS damaging other components of your machine.
 
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